orientation of burman photos at sbc

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ORIENTATION OF BURMAN PHOTOS AT SBC

Post  Edward Roberts on Tue 8 Jan - 13:59:26

well done bob an excellent observation
my theory and i refer to mcintyres sketch, the standing figure is representing mcintyre and not kennedy. therefore the standing figure is facing towards the north NNE. My studies (still learning) have lead me to believe that kenneddy did not cross over to the west side of the logs.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Tue 8 Jan - 19:25:01

Greetings Robert and Edward,

Robert you wrote " The orientation of the Burman photos remain a mystery to me because of the standing figure in one of the photos" Robert, the standing figure is in both photos.

If we just concentrate on your first line first -

Q, Is there a fundamental fault with McIntyre's map? Or is there a fundamental fault with the photos?
Answer, I believe the fault is Mc's map.
I will explain how I resolve this Burman photo orientation' issue.

I quote what Mc said but in simplified words. This info can be read on my - SBC Investigation webpage -
add [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
See T.N. McIntyre - Manuscript and typescript- about halfway down the webpage.

Quote- “ . . . . . That he had been reconnoitering our position was evident . . . .Kelly was kneeling on one knee behind the log and in looking down the creek he looked over the body of Lonigan which was about 8 yards from him and a couple more from myself. He had the two rifles laid up against the log on his right hand, and I stood upon his left with a log between us. . . . . The sun had sunk behind the tall trees on our left, where the ground was elevated . . . .”

In other parts, Mc said Ned was on his right, this was on the creek side.

Mc said Kennedy came into the camp "from higher ground" from the west on our left when Ned fired the shot over Mc's head, and in doing fired too high to hit him ( Kennedy and missed ). Note above quote " the sun sank behind the tall trees on our left, where the ground was elevated…"

Mc said the three of them formed a straight line -so to speak, and as Ned did not want to shoot Mc the shot missed Kennedy.

Please see map page 36 of my document, add [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

See items 9 where Ned sat behind the fire on the south side of the logs in the Burman photo,
Mc said he sat on the log to Ned's left some 10 yards away ( Mc sat on the East West log) when Kennedy approached. Mc said he stepped forward and told the Sergeant he had better surrender. It was then that Kennedy went for his firearm and slid off from behind his horse. The horse was startled and plunged towards Mc.

Ned fired at Kennedy but because Mc was in the way the shot missed Kennedy.
Hence Mc wrote the three formed a straight line see item 9,13, 14. on my map
Mc also said he sat on 'that' log that Ned told him to sit on, the East West log, with the 'other log' Mc said was between him and Ned, this was to be Mc's North South log, or the continuation of that line. See McIntyre's map layout on page20 of my doc above link.

Now lets go to McIntyre's map. See page 18 of my document.
The two logs Mc has drawn at right angles are not the same two FRONTAL logs as in the Burman photo. Page 32
(both logs behind the standing figure)

In the Burman photos, the logs Mc refers to are the two logs on the right hand side OF THE PHOTO - one face on to the viewer, the other retreats into the background to the big tree on the right of the photo.

McIntyre's Map is at fault because he tried to align his map with the Burman photo that he knew Ned could / would use in his trial. The trial was not till 20 months after the event, so his map sketch had to conform with the photos. The big mistake he made was not drawing the third log to the east which formed the angles of the two front logs in the Burman photos.

I hope you can follow this. Otherwise, if you want to believe Mc's Map instead of his texts, then all that McIntyre has written is one hundred and eighties degrees around the wrong way. If we believe his map as being the two logs in the Burman photo, then the Burman photo was looking N East, but there is no slope as in the photo to be seen in that location on site.

Robert, I hope this clarifies the contradictions you mention in your post.

Bill


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ORIENTATION OF BURMAN PHOTOS AT SBC

Post  joey. on Thu 10 Jan - 11:26:31

Hi all,

Bill - been sometime since we last spoke - hope all is well.

Although I have not fully read your reply to Bob.... I do have a favour to ask. Could you pls provide the bearing in degrees for your log placements as per your findings.

Being the South, North, East and West logs.

Ok - time to get cosy and have a read...... Smile

chat soon,
Joey

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Thu 10 Jan - 14:40:40

Reply to Joey,

Hello Joey, Good to see you on the page.
You ask "
Could you please provide the bearing in degrees for your log placements as per your findings. Being the South, North, East and West logs.

Using the Burman photo No1,
Please go to my document -
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

See page15, the model log placement on a board.

On the basis of placing these log model and turning them to match the photo in the background, you can see a birds eye view on page16. The resultant picture of log configuration is a good approximation.

Magnetic North is 10 degrees East of True North so if you place your pencil where the two logs meet as a starting point, and run a line through the middle of the stump, that line is approx Magnetic North.

However, we cannot be exactly sure of the north south line in the Burman photo except to say Burman took his photo looking southerly.

The east west log nearest the tent is around compass bearing 270 to 280 degrees East West

The North South logs are running North East 35 to 45 degrees South West

The included logs angle facing the viewer in the Burman photo is about 120 degrees

Hope this helps.
Bill


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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Thu 10 Jan - 21:04:48

Bill,

Promptly delivered ........appreciated Smile as you may have guessed I haven't had the chance to fully read your notes..... BUT from what I've read I'm left scratching my head - slightly confused to say the least.

Bob
Hi there bob been some time since we last spoke - hope you and the family are well. When are you back down in kelly country next? maybe a catch up at SBC is in order ???

Chat soon


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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Fri 11 Jan - 15:04:26

Hi Joey,
See the sketch of log angles on my previous posting.
I hope this leaves you less confused.

This configuration was worked out from the Burman1 photo. If you are unsure I can bring the models along next time we meet at SBC.
Bill



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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Guest on Fri 11 Jan - 22:39:46

Interesting diagram Bill, that will take some consideration!

Guest
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ORIENTATION OF BURMAN PHOTOS AT SBC

Post  joey. on Fri 11 Jan - 23:46:12

Second attempt to post - first attempt failed Evil or Very Mad

Bill - Thx.
All good - Just a bit too much info to absorb.

Bill - If I apply the degrees you provided on site (SBC) - I should then have placement of the N.S & W logs correct.?

At this stage I'm happy to accept the 270-280 degree log.



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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Sun 13 Jan - 2:01:09

Hiya Bob,
Mate - sorry to hear the news bout your misses - pass on my regards - I'm glad she is doing well and able to travel Smile

Bob have you ever spent a full nite at SBC? it is so damn spooky BUT the sounds of the nite are spectacular.... Going back in June last yr I record the sounds.....during the middle of the day - AWESOME mate absolutely awesome!! The rustle of the trees, a number of birds whistling and from what I can make out a frog crocking away..... thou the best part was the complete silence.- zilch, not a sound.

In a few weeks we're heading up to Powers, followed by Chestnut and then onto Glenrowan. A tough drive BUT a worthy one to say the least..... BTW I'm lok'n fwd to Powers lookout.

RE: Log/camp layout.
My advice to you is to get your hands on Maca's manuscript - You will find his manuscript to be very useful - in terms of getting a clear picture of the layout of the camp site etc. Naturally a field trip will complete your quest.
Not knowing if you have the link OR a copy of Maca's manuscript.... Link attached below.

police.vic.gov.au/content.asp?Document_ID=10583

Or you can order a typescript of the Manuscript from the SLV - it will set you back about $70.

Be warned there are a number of errors ..... Now carefully reading Maca's notes accompanied with a roughly drawn sketch - you should be able to put together the N,S,E and W logs. REMEMBERING as a reference Ian Jone's site - on the East side of the creek - I'm sure you been to that site.... correct me if I'm wrong Smile

In due course I'll have more to say Smile

chat soon Bob.




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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Edward Roberts on Sun 13 Jan - 17:46:00

Your blood is worth bottling Joey. I never knew the McIntyre files were online. I'm about 1/4 of the way into the files and what a fascinating insight to this remarkable piece of history.

Unlike in todays day and age with modern hand held devices, we have to give some credit to the bushman of yesteryear. With their uncanny ability to give/follow directions + measurements with sight alone. It was after all their way of life. If McIntyre was quoted as saying the distance from A-B = 30 chains then it must be accepted. Of course allowing + or - for slight judgement of error.
McIntyre was after the only surviving witness.

Sorry Bob, Bill, My opinion is based on my readings alone.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Tue 15 Jan - 0:16:04

Hiya Bob, Edward

RE: Maca's memoirs...
The SLV version is a type script and no where as clean as the police version BUT they are same same doc. One was obviously written much earlier than the other.

Bob, I hear what you are saying re: the inconsistencies. I guess it's up to us to try and work them out as a team.... team work prevails.

Ed .....can I call you Ed?

Unlike in todays day and age with modern hand held devices, we have to give some credit to the bushman of yesteryear. With their uncanny ability to give/follow directions + measurements with sight alone. It was after all their way of life. If McIntyre was quoted as saying the distance from A-B = 30 chains then it must be accepted. Of course allowing + or - for slight judgement of error.
McIntyre was after the only surviving witness.

Mate your spot on as far as I'm concerned. Hey so what if he was off a yard or two. if it were 20 or so yards well then it's a different matter altogether BUT I reckon he gave a good call.







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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Wed 16 Jan - 17:16:06

Hi All,

Great news RE: Ned's burial - been a long time coming.

Bob - I totally agree about the inaccuracies with distances, etc, etc - BUT I'm also considering other facts that do put the pieces together quit well. I'm sure we'll all agree that the mystery behind the inaccuracies makes the challenge even more challenging.

Bill -

RE: Question I raised on the 11/Jan @ 13.46 still remains unanswered by you ...

Bill - If I apply the degrees you provided on site (SBC) - I should then have placement of the N.S & W logs correct.?


Also RE: your comment about Magnetic North - this is what I have to say about it ....

True north is a constant and refers to the geographic North Pole. Magnetic north tends to shift and refers to the pole of the Earth's magnetic field. In mid 2002, true north and magnetic north were approximately 590 miles apart.

Looking fwd to your reply.

joey.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Thu 17 Jan - 1:23:39

Hiya Bob,

My oath - the bloody media will be like a bunch of vultures. Hopefully they'll show some courtesy and steer clear from the cemetery.

Will you be coming down Bob?

Chat soon
joey

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Kelvyn on Thu 17 Jan - 10:31:15

In the other forum - trents' a posting by Lisa says that the Church was phoned and they have advised that contrary to newspaper reports etc the service on Friday is NOT a public service and it is for Family etc only.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Kelvyn on Thu 17 Jan - 10:35:56

Joey, you said above:
RE: Maca's memoirs...
that the SLV typescript and McIntyre's on-line typescript are the "same same":
Sorry, but they are not, yes much is identical but there are variations between the two.
A bit of nitpicking from me.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Thu 17 Jan - 11:20:21

Hiya Kel,

You nitpicker mongrel you lol! I should have known you'll pick me up on that one lol! Sure its somewhat different as in terms of changes being within the doc BUT at the end of the day it's his memoirs ....you nitpicker you.

Ok - so now I wait for another nitpick from ya lol! lol!

P.S.....Hey admin FYI mongrel is an in house joke between us - by no means am I having a go at him ....EVEN thou he deserves it. lol!

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Thu 17 Jan - 11:35:46

Hiya Bob,

Ok fair enough - hope all goes well with your b/ful wife Bob - prayers for her!!

On the last post made by Kel, and on that note ....NO I will not be going Friday.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Thu 17 Jan - 16:08:58

Hello Joe,
Not being a surveyor, I imagine by what you wrote that if we were to use a compass and heading to the North pole we would get close to it, except up there the needle stops pointing. However perhaps if we were to use magnetic deviation to calculate True North and head to the north pole we maybe 560 miles out as you suggest, don't know about that?

My understanding is that to survey the country with grid lines using magnetic north we would not always be heading in the right direction because of the iron blobs within the earth pulls the needle to left or right depending where on earth we were standing.

To answer your question regarding my rough calculation of Burman photo log angles as previously posted [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Yes, the east west log McIntyre referred to would be orientated 270 to 280 degrees West, plus or minus ten degrees, as we don't know for sure the angle Burman faced his camera to take the shot. In any event Burman's camera was facing southerly.

I would not take Mc's orientation as gospel because all he wanted to do was describe to his superiors how he later found the body of Lonigan in the dark. In his mind's eye he knew there was a log laying east west while standing in front of the tent facing east. He said he went left around the east west log and to between it and the stump as where Lonigan had been shot.

Bill
Gee Joe those wavy LOLs make me dizzy, can't you stop them for a while? LOL
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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Kelvyn on Thu 17 Jan - 21:20:26

Joey, thanks for the great comic relief.
I'm a bit out of touch so I assume LOL means lots of love (and light) - most appropriate you know.
I see you now have another lecture in which iron blobs star as the villians of the piece; perhaps soon the alignment of the firmaments will be used.
It gets tiring reading some of this stuff as it adds nothing to the analytical assessment of the matter whatsoever, perhaps red herrings should be repainted to black??
No matter how much bumff is placed within the confines of this place it won't add one iota to the assessment by the qualified people within the appropriate Govt agencies who may eventually decide to undertake a proper and exhaustive review of the claims of all (if of course the claims can be distilled from the morass of stuff placed in this temporary repository unlike our SCI@SBC material which is not continually "edited" as it is all factually substantiated.
I am sure your time is valuable, and can't be wasted too much when I would suggest little substantive result will be gained.
May you obtain satisfaction from your endeavors but I wonder if it will be so.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Admin on Fri 18 Jan - 15:23:15

May I remind you this is a forum to debate the subject NOT the person.

Thank you.
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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Fri 18 Jan - 20:33:24

Hi Bob,

The police tent in our Appendixes 10,11 &12 is located in the N/W corner of the clearing. If you look more carefully you will notice the outline incorporates the area of the spear grasses on the declivity. As per McIntyre's descriptions.

Cheers,
Glenn

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Sat 19 Jan - 11:12:05

Bob, Hope this helps


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This image came from the CSI@SBC document when I was still a member, and this map was one of several dozens of reasons I had to rejected the whole CSI team's scenario.

This picture was sent back to the team with the added the red text to show them WHY they were totally wrong in orientation.

In their CSI@SBC July 2011 (first edition ) copy that I have, page 81 is Appendix 11A,
also includes a faint green dotted line array supposedly showing the direction of the Beautiful Mansfield photo view, which follows the same array directions of the Burman photo arrays - but a little further south.

The squiggly line depicting the 'Camp site Clearing' in July edition is a bit more 'blobby' near the road, but for the rest it's identical.

The map shows two small dots . . representing 'Burnt Hut Remains' ?
I need to tell the readers that I metal detected the entire area back in 1985 with no indications of any hut sites anywhere within the Picnic Ground - K tree precinct.

Near where the words Camp site Clearing appears on the map there was a detectable patch of buried rubbish in old ashes with a few old red brick fragments, some bits of broken crockery and a few rusty nails of modern variety. But there was absolutely no indications of hut sites. In 2002 I showed Gary Dean that spot, and also Kelvyn and Glenn in 2009.
Bill

PS, see both versions here
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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Sat 19 Jan - 11:15:51

Hiya Bill,
Ok – I’ll take that as a yes! Thank you.

Oh by the way Bill – perhaps a straight answer would best suit me for future replies.

I imagine by what you wrote that if we were to use a compass and heading to the North pole we would get close to it, except up there the needle stops pointing. However, perhaps if we were to use magnetic deviation to calculate True North and head to the north pole we maybe 560 miles out as you suggest, don't know about that?

No need to go off tack - pls stick to the subject matter.

Also, You would like us not to
take Mc's orientation as gospel
Therefore lets take your orientation as gospel shall we? NO - Bill, Sorry mate your ignoring historical facts to suit. Didn’t Maca have a compass with him?

Chat soon,
joey





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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Sat 19 Jan - 11:46:45

Hello Joe,
If I knew what your question was I could probably say yes or no!
By all accounts poor McIntyre must have been very confused.
Bill

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Sat 19 Jan - 13:30:25

Hi Bob,
Here are two versions of page 81 Appendix 11 and 11A
By my reckoning there is not much different. Bill

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

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