orientation of burman photos at sbc

Page 5 of 6 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Wed 13 Feb - 9:20:42

Admin. Thank you for stepping in. My apologise, I am as guilty as anyone for becoming a little patronising. As Bob has said most of the members of this forum go back a long way and so do the dividing opinions between us. Things can become a little heated.

Bob, I am sorry to have upset you. That was not my intention.

There have been many questions asked throughout the debate from both sides some questions have been covered by other members. Others not answered or ignored. The debate rolls on. Bit all over the shop at times.

Glenn Standing

Posts : 42
Join date : 2013-01-05

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Wed 13 Feb - 9:28:01

Bill, you are opening up another can of worms here with your latest above post. Fire place positions, etc. Would you kindly hold fire until the previous matter has been adressed.

Glenn Standing

Posts : 42
Join date : 2013-01-05

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Wed 13 Feb - 11:29:06

Admin.

Bob, You have stated not one but three questions. Regardless could the CSI team be gracious enough to answer the questions set out below.
I hope this will clear the air.

Quote "why the CSI team showed the creek a long way behind the Kelly tree when it was actually right behind or close to it."

The distance from the Kelly tree to the creek edge was measured by myself at approx. 23yrds give or take a yrd or two.
The creek alignment shown in our report is the current creek alignment. The Kelly tree positioned accordingly.


Quote "Why McIntyre stated the 2 logs met each other at the centre point as the Burman shots show yet the CSI diagram and McIntyres sketches do not match his statement"

McIntyre – “Standing at the tent entrance and facing the creek there was upon the left front a felled tree nearly 4ft in diameter, at the thickest part. It lay nearly east and west. About mid way it was joined by another which lay due north south and terminated where it joined the other.”

McIntyre’s diagram/map provided a representation only of the logs. Along with clear compass points and directions. The diagram of the logs is obviously not scaled. The actual lengths of the log/logs shown in the rear of the Burman images can be seen to be open to interpretation. The CSI team chose to use the diagram demonstrating the location of the logs and layout according to his words and diagram.


Quote "I asked Glenn about the creek I also asked why their team hardly mentioned the slope which was brought up again today."

The slope has been mentioned on several occasions, by Kelvyn, Joey and myself. Images have been produced.
Quote from Bob. “There is the decline to the creek as shown in the photo and the slope rises the other side of the creek and simply cannot be.”
My answer was : Your opinion only.
The ground rises from the other side of the creek. But can appear to rise from the same ground. The creek being at a much lower level. In amongst the scrub.

I trust this clears the matter.

Regards,
Glenn



Glenn Standing

Posts : 42
Join date : 2013-01-05

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Guest on Wed 13 Feb - 12:18:30

G’day Chuck,

Contrary to what Bob has stated (for those who do not know, I am Mick Fitzsimons as members can no longer see who is really who), I like Joey are my own man doing my own research and not a “disciple of ‘the Linton team’” as stated by Bob. I am only interested in the truth and so far the CSI Team has presented the only decent and professionally researched proposal. That is why I have had little to say on this topic, though now brought into it I will share my observations from visits to SBC, taking measurements and photos and considering all proposals.

The 2 huts site is too small, the orientation is all wrong, Burman could not have placed his camera where it would have been required to capture the remains of two huts and have had the police tent behind it, the slope doesn’t fit, there is no declivity in the right direction, there is no spring, the creek is too close, there is no spear-grass and you would have to discount all of McIntyre’s statements and drawings. I was also disappointed to see a member of the 2 huts site playing the man a few posts back.

From what I can see, the CSI team has nothing to gain by a meeting at SBC as their analysis is far too thorough to be understood by the uninitiated. Bill on the other hand is trying to turn it into a circus with a far simplistic approach that is based on believing McIntyre didn’t know north from south or the difference from up the creek to down the creek. A total waste of time and effort in my humble opinion!

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Guest on Thu 14 Feb - 14:05:31

Bob, I would class the list below as ‘playing the man’.

Please G**** stop twisting the evidence it is clearly there for all to see without distorting the facts.

Your statement on cropping and digital cameras how pathetic is that.

My goodness come on G**** surely you can do better than that,we need a challenge.

I just had to reply to G**** ridiculous responses.
To me, these statements are derogatory and questioning someone’s intelligence. And now you are trying it on me by using ‘personal’ e-mails to discredit. I would have thought was below you Bob. If you are trying to embarrass or discredit me it will not work. I had clearly stated my thoughts on ‘all’ SBC sites on KC2000, so none of this is new. One thing that I have categorically stuck to is that the 2 huts site is completely wrong! I could also quote you, where you haven’t always agreed with Bill and also said you thought that the spot was more near the toilet block, but that is being petty and I will not lower myself to that level.

It’s a shame Bob, as we used to be good mates and corresponded frequently and speak over the phone. You seem to have forgotten that I helped you a lot with research on your family which you have never publicly acknowledged, like you have continually with others who got in your ear about me on another forum. Bob, you were once a man of integrity and morals and I though a good judge of character, but sadly you have been mislead by those you now regard as friends and that does sadden me.

For the record Bob, there is still the odd thing about the CSI Team’s location that I’m not convinced about, but there is ‘not one’ thing about the 2 huts site that I could agree with. So 98% with one camp and 0% with the other, I hope that is now clear.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

THE AND NOW

Post  Edward Roberts on Thu 14 Feb - 14:13:13

Bill Denheld wrote:

I have come to the conclusion that the slopes in question are different from one another. Each are representing a different view altogether. The felled trees sketched in, very convincing.

Edward Roberts

Posts : 10
Join date : 2013-01-05

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Thu 14 Feb - 23:14:02

Hiya ER - excellent obs. Wink

Bill -
On Page 5 - you have a drawing showing various features in and around the two hut site - w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/twohutsscalemap.jpg

Could you pls confirm what No.'s 4, 5, 7, 9, 10, 12, and 13 are referring too? I have an idea BUT just the same could you pls confirm.

Joey


Last edited by Admin on Fri 15 Feb - 0:20:51; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : changed Page 6 to Page 5)

joey.

Posts : 29
Join date : 2013-01-06
Location : Kelly country

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Fri 15 Feb - 8:16:35

Joey,
As suggested all you need to find the notes to corresponding numbers -

Link [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
See pages 36 and 37

w w w dot ironicon.com.au/stringybark_ck_the_authentic_location.pdf



Bill Denheld

Posts : 69
Join date : 2013-01-06

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Fri 15 Feb - 12:01:39

Edward,
I can understand you may want to ask me a question about the pictures 'Then and Now', but I sense your conclusion is not warranted.

Considering you are the organiser of the pending 20th April SBC event, I think you are being quite inconsiderate of my research throwing in your statement, Quote-
" I have come to the conclusion that the slopes are different from one another".

Yes Edward, the pictures are different, but if you know anything about topography, you should know times change the appearances of landscapes, yet similarities stay the same. What would you expect after 135 years ?

In these intervening years, the place by now may have become someone's farm shed with a slope behind. If it was not for the Board of Works rezoning all the farm land in the area in 1948, that's exactly what it could have been, someone's backyard.

May I ask, have you been to SBC yourself? Have you looked for a slope rising from flat ground?
Please answer this question for me in your reply.

I can tell you this, the images 'Now and Then' are looking at the same place, different time, different camera with a different focal length, different vegetation, one skyline uncleared another cleared.

The 'Now' scene 'slope' is the result of bulldozers pushing dead canopy trees over the slope edge after the fires ( I think this was 2007) This bulldozer pushing in my opinion was historical vandalism by the DSE as they knew very well of the research taking place at the 'two huts' site since 2003.

As far as the light and shadows are concerned, please take a look at the logs in the 'Then' picture and compare the meagre log in the 'Now' picture, do you see the similarity in light and shade? I'm not teaching people how to suck eggs, but remember this, - in these two photos there are fireplaces of two huts, a slope of the correct height, the space for the logs, the slope rises up from the rear most log, the light is the same, the slope dips the same direction. What more do you want, Ned Kelly's initials carved into a bullet found at the site?

Maybe you should ask the CSI team to produce a similar set of shots. Then we maybe able to make a fair comparison. Why don't you do that ?
Bill

Bill Denheld

Posts : 69
Join date : 2013-01-06

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  brian murphy on Fri 15 Feb - 15:02:05

'quote Considering you are the organiser of the pending 20th April SBC event, I think you are being quite inconsiderate of my research throwing in your statement, Quote-
" I have come to the conclusion that the slopes are different from one another".'

Edward should not be subjected to special rights or conditions. He is after all expressing his own opinion and has expressed quite well. Being an organiser does not revoke one's right to have a say.
The slope at the two hut site is indeed as Edward described 'different from one another.'

'quote The 'Now' scene 'slope' is the result of bulldozers pushing dead canopy trees over the slope edge after the fires'
Is this a fact? Please back this up with official documentation.

I can tell you this, the images 'Now and Then' are looking at two separate sites.

brian murphy

Posts : 45
Join date : 2013-01-14
Age : 33
Location : SE Melbourne

Back to top Go down

orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Guest on Fri 15 Feb - 15:56:17

Have a lot of posts been removed from this thread??????????????

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  brian murphy on Fri 15 Feb - 16:05:59

Bob has thrown the towel in defeat. He couldn't make his case stick and therefore in his defence, he deleted his own posts.
Another victory for the csi team

brian murphy

Posts : 45
Join date : 2013-01-14
Age : 33
Location : SE Melbourne

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Fri 15 Feb - 16:06:35

When looking at the tree limb above it would be easy to conclude that the light came from the right side of the limb. Light on top, dark underneath.
The same effect can be created if the direction of the sunlight followed the direction of the limb. By examining the surrounding tree canopies it can be seen that this is supported by other tree limbs and branches.
Of particular interest is the branch on the left in the image below. The end faces the viewer at almost 90deg. The light direction is from the left. Supported by other smaller limbs following a similar line. As shown below.






The above image courtesy of the police historical unit.
Within the full size Burman 1 image other distinct light and shade areas can be seen. As indicated above. Left side of the seated man, shoulder, hat and boots. Left side of the standing man from his boot to his hat. Plus other distinctive areas as shown.
In a similar direction as the (nearly) east west log.
In accordance with the sun movements the images would have been taken between 2 & 3pm. on that day. In the image below the sunlight comes from the NW. early afternoon on a sunny day.



Glenn Standing

Posts : 42
Join date : 2013-01-05

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Guest on Fri 15 Feb - 16:12:02

Thanks Brian. Posts should 'not' be deleted as it ruins the threads, making them hard to follow with answers to a comment that is no longer there.

Great enlargements Glenn and it certainly does show the light is coming from where you say.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Fri 15 Feb - 18:54:51

Meet you all at SBC 20 April 2013

Click here to see full picture - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


see full picture
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/twohutsfromroadlevelground.jpg

The red lines show laser lines to the top of slopes


Bill Denheld

Posts : 69
Join date : 2013-01-06

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Guest on Fri 15 Feb - 19:57:28

Bill, try and take a photo that puts the 2 fireplaces in perspective with the Burman photos? You will be taking a photo at ground level because the ground falls away.

Guest
Guest


Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Sat 16 Feb - 9:46:16

Bill - Pls convince me of the following statement. I'm sure the readers would also be interested.

The 'Now' scene 'slope' is the result of bulldozers pushing dead canopy trees over the slope edge after the fires ( I think this was 2007) This bulldozer pushing in my opinion was historical vandalism by the DSE as they knew very well of the research taking place at the 'two huts' site since 2003.
First it was SBCreek being shifted some 20 yards - NOW it's the slope falling victim to a Dozer - what's next? One hell of a statement indeed.

joey.

Posts : 29
Join date : 2013-01-06
Location : Kelly country

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Edward Roberts on Sat 16 Feb - 14:52:07

Considering you are the organiser of the pending 20th April SBC event, I think you are being quite inconsiderate of my research throwing in your statement, Quote-
" I have come to the conclusion that the slopes are different from one another".
Nonsense, absolutely nonsense.
Such a comment would suggest that I have sided with you. This is definitely not the case.


Edward Roberts

Posts : 10
Join date : 2013-01-05

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  brian murphy on Sun 17 Feb - 11:32:37

Bill, I would like to see proof of the so called destruction of the said slope. A photograph will suffice. To date you have presented us with photographs therefore I trust this will not be an issue, unless of course you are not being completely honest with us?
Please don't take too long to reply. Also several posts await for your immediate reply.

Until then the slope in the Burman photo and the southern slope do vary considerably. Bill I'm afraid you have muddied your own research.

brian murphy

Posts : 45
Join date : 2013-01-14
Age : 33
Location : SE Melbourne

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Sun 17 Feb - 12:29:59

Brian,
I posted this picture for you on Friday. You needed to click on this link below to see the full picture.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

See Yellow text at bottom right of this image.
" This tree rubble was bulldozed over the edge of the slope near the twohuts site after 2007 fires killed many drought affected trees. "

The tree logs are fullsize trees, not just some match sticks. They are strewn over the slope. I am standing halfway up the slope on the road side, fore had I gone higher up to take this photo I would have lost perspective of the main two huts site.
In this picture, there is a tree log just under the laser line with a note " 5 metre high slope here to South" This tree is clearly seen on my SBC document cover with a figure standing beside this fallen tree. Notice the end of the tree has dug in to the dirt snaping it.

Bill
See my document at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Bill Denheld

Posts : 69
Join date : 2013-01-06

Back to top Go down

Previous Post by Glenn regarding the shadows in the Burman photo.

Post  Bill Denheld on Sun 17 Feb - 15:45:25

Glenn's previous posting image was used

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Glenn, you have made some interesting observations. However you forgot the elephant in the room, the logs on the ground.

Please read Mr. Sydney Kirkby's statement on the Burman photo,
See bold - the pertinent text.
" My reading of the light in the re-enactment photo is thus. The sun is close to the zenith (in the N) and seems to me to lie above the photographer's right shoulder, say 20, 30 degrees (somewhat post noon) off the orientation of the camera. I think this was pretty much standard practice for those times as light coming directly onto a subject "flattens" it, Fully side on, either way, risks losing detail and, of course, coming straight on to the lens is a wash out of detail. We followed these conventions (or tried to) with our mapping photography, both aerial and photo-theodolite. Regards Syd Kirlby "

" as light coming directly onto a subject flattens it"
Like with the logs in the Burman photo and tall standing trees, for the rest of the photo, it is just a jumble of detail although the logs look very flat and over exposed due to direct light. The direct light sticking the logs has flattened the form of the logs.

By contrast part of your own picture

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Now see how the log shadows would have looked had the photo been taken looking East.N East at around 2 to3 pm as Glenn suggests in his post above.

A sundial was created to test the shadow angles as per Glenn's sun movements.



Glenn, I knew you would be interested about the set up-
Test time between 2 and 3 pm
The sundial was orientated Magnetic North. Each hour was marked on the board.
A yellow tape points to E.N.East the direction of your Burman photo scenario.
A drum simulates a log in the photo - at the same parallel.
A bin was added as the stump in the photo.

The shadows simulation on the drum and bin do not match the Burman photos, so by this demonstrates the CSI team's orientation is wrong.
Bill




Last edited by Bill Denheld on Sun 17 Feb - 15:52:56; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Add previous to title)

Bill Denheld

Posts : 69
Join date : 2013-01-06

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Sun 17 Feb - 16:59:10

Bill,

Quote: What we need to look at in the photos are those areas that are not affected by reflected light, ' like the branches in the forest canopy' adjacent to the campsite clearing 'opening', without other reflection influences.

You sent me up into the trees where as I have proven the light come from a NW direction.

Now you want to go back down onto the ground again?

Simple answer - if the light came from the right then those areas you have highlighted under the logs would not be in shadow.

The light came from the NW.






Glenn Standing

Posts : 42
Join date : 2013-01-05

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  brian murphy on Sun 17 Feb - 17:17:02

Bill,
I understood exactly what needed to be done in order to view the full size image.
See Yellow text at bottom right of this image.
" This tree rubble was bulldozed over the edge of the slope near the twohuts site after 2007 fires killed many drought affected trees.

You said it Bill "This tree rubble was bulldozed over the edge of the slope near the twohuts site" The tree rubble does not change the natural contours of the slope.

The logs lay on the side of the slope not resting on top of it. It does not warrant the two different views of the said slope.
Bill are you in a position to supply an image that will best represent your argument? You readers would like to see a better perspective of the so called destruction of the slope. Perhaps then and only then I will give you some credit.

brian murphy

Posts : 45
Join date : 2013-01-14
Age : 33
Location : SE Melbourne

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Mon 18 Feb - 13:00:52

Brian, you wrote,-
"You said it Bill "This tree rubble was bulldozed over the edge of the slope near the twohuts site" The tree rubble does not change the natural contours of the slope."

Brian, The trees were growing on top of the little hill and died because of the bush fires, and were droped down onto the ground and the whole lot was bulldozed into a heap and then dozed from the top of the little hill down the slope taking part of the top of the hill with it. Thus the changed look of the slope and the now flat top hill.

"The logs lay on the side of the slope not resting on top of it.
It does not warrant the two different views of the said slope."


Brian, this unfortunate bulldozing activity has destroyed the natural contours of the slope, and naturally the top of the little hill has changed the look of the slope if viewed from the direction Burman took his photos.

"Bill are you in a position to supply an image that will best represent your argument? Your readers would like to see a better perspective of the so called destruction of the slope. Perhaps then and only then I will give you some credit. brian murphy"

Brian, The best thing is for you and the readers is to make it to the April meeting at SBC where I will show the finer details of the exact place Burman took his photos of the police camp, and answer any question you may have.

In my document - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Page 14, Under Slope steepness, shows two cross section drawings, the two huts site, and the Kelly tree site, of the CSI team. This K tree cross section shows there is no comparison with the Burman photo cross section at the two huts site.

image 'BurmanPhoto1 cross section with slope'

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

In the mean time, here are a couple more photos of the Two Huts site,
This photo was taken of Kelvyn with his back to the slope and rubble from the bulldozing.
Photo taken at around 2 pm May 2009, in a southerly direction.
Notice the tree shadow lines which are running through the image, and are from the North West. ( just as Glenn says in his post above) Notice the tree foregrond left does not show a light and dark side, just as in the Burman photos.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This image below shows the flattened top of the little hill and tree rubble on the slope.
Compare the two images, same direction same place but taken at different times.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Incidentally, both fireplaces are out of view, one directly right the other is near left of the laser line. The 5 Metres referrers to the little hill height from the flat and starts to climb further back from the orange ribbon sapling.

Hope this helps Brian.
Bill







Bill Denheld

Posts : 69
Join date : 2013-01-06

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Mon 18 Feb - 14:21:20

Bill,

Quote:What we need to look at in the photos are those areas that are not affected by reflected light, ' like the branches in the forest canopy' adjacent to the campsite clearing 'opening', without other reflection influences.
So, to pick out areas like Glenn has done, i.e., photo brightness to the left side of standing man image, for instance, is coping a lot of reflected light from the logs or even the ground itself, and is no indication where the sun was at that moment of time.

You sent me up into the trees where as I have proven the light come from a NW direction.



The light on the far left limb clearly comes from the left side and cannot come from the right side.

Now you want to go back down onto the ground again?

Quote:Photo taken at around 2 pm May 2009, in a southerly direction.
Notice the tree shadow lines which are running through the image, and are from the North West. ( just as Glenn says in his post above) Notice the tree foregrond left does not show a light and dark side, just as in the Burman photos



The light came from the left NW of the Burman images which were taken facing an Easterly direction. In accordence with McIntyre's description of the logs.
Not as you have demonstrated in your above image.



Glenn Standing

Posts : 42
Join date : 2013-01-05

Back to top Go down

Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 5 of 6 Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum