orientation of burman photos at sbc

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Tue 19 Feb - 13:00:06

19 Feb 2013
For the purpose of clarity I will make a few more postings.

Previously on page4 and 5 we established the Burman photo was looking south.

On page Page9, I have demonstrated 'by the logic of science' that orientation of logs as in the Burman photo 'log form likeness' if placed at 'near' the Kelly tree, looking East North East as proposed by the CSI group, this IS NOT POSSIBLE, because the light shadows would be completely different to the Burman photos.

The next issue the readers need to understand is the orientation of the logs in the Burman photos.

Lets start with McIntyre's Map - two logs

Image copy facsimile from the original held by Vic Police Museum VPM

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Note all images presented are copyright - SBC the Authentic Location-Denheld

The next image is a sketch that was published 21 days after the SBC event.
Caption reads " Drawn by our Artist, from a rough sketch by Constable McIntyre"
Notice the tent position and the red lines representing McIntyre's two logs as per his map above.


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Original Image courtesy archives- Qld State Library, Sydney Mail 16 Nov 1878

Compare this with McIntyre's map-

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Now lets examine the actual layout of the logs in the McIntyre endorsed sketch.
Notice in the sketch we have two logs forming an upside down T ( T and tent)
During my research 2003 to 2009, analysis of the Burman photo reveled McIntyres upside down T was more like a back to front y with the tent facing into the v of the y.
See 'SBC The Authentic Location' Page 15-16-17
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Given the layout revelation, we could now correct McIntyre's map -

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For the CSI team, they have not been able to accept this concept.
They stick to the notion that the two logs McIntyre drew on his map are those same logs shown face on in the Burman photos. ( which are indicated by the green lines)

But in reality the red lined logs in the Sydney Mail drawing are the logs McIntyre drew on his map. To put this into perspective, the image below shows both McIntyre's side in red, and the Burman photo logs side in green.

Here then lays the fundamental confusion for the CSI group.

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It should be noted this Sydney Mail drawing with McIntyres endorsement is primary source material and is rejected by the CSI@SBC report.
The CSI group lean heavily on McIntyre's every notation, but they have ignored the most important clue - in primary source material, instead they have mis interpreted both McIntyre's map and the Burman photos because of that.

It is hoped the CSI group can now see they have missed a very important clue. This now brings me back to the orientation of the Burman photo and we have come a compete circle.

Image showing orientation of Burman photo and Mcintyre's Sydney Mail drawing,

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Please notice the tent marked on my scale map layout in yellow.
Also notice the blue water in both Sydney Mail drawing and base map.

This then also brings into focus the seated man and the standing figure.
The CSI group in their document page 15 discount the relevence of the figures as they - " do not accord with McIntyres descriptive accounts of the affair, or the positions shown in his scale diagram of the camp site."
Off course they don't, if the the CSI group believe the figures are on the south side of the logs?

Please look again, the figures are on the North side of the logs in the Burman photos, when the photo is looking SOUTH. McIntyre's Sydney Mail drawing is looking WEST.

And for the last time, please take another look at the previously posted Sun Movement sketch and see the Burman photos were taken with the sun from the right, from over the photographers back - right shoulder.

Image of Sun movements

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Notice the position of the tent and the log configuration.


I now bring my Orientation presentation to a close.

If anyone has any questions please read my document at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
where all is comprehensivly explained.

See you all at Stringybark Creek on the 20th April 2013
I will give a tour of all the sites.

Cheerio
Bill

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Tue 19 Feb - 15:03:08

Bill,

By avoiding the evidence placed before you in my previous posting I take it you have no answer.
Or do not want to accept it.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Tue 19 Feb - 16:32:18

Glenn,
I am not avoiding anything.

You last say " By avoiding the evidence placed before you in my previous posting I take it you have no answer. Or do not want to accept it."

I have stated my case. I am not into answering nit picking issues after I have already answered you on the top of this page9- 17th Feb - a reply to your post 15th Feb on page8.

This debate should be about the big picture, it is now up to you or the CSI team to state their case.
Bill

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Kelvyn on Wed 20 Feb - 16:39:26

Quote:The next image is a sketch that was published 21 days after the SBC event.
Caption reads " Drawn by our Artist, from a rough sketch by Constable McIntyre"

A rough drawing indeed it is, no doubt the position of the antagonists in this sketch can now be referred to a primary source material and therefore now not open to any further conjecture as to correctness or otherwise of the actualevents at Stringybark Creek. The sketch is a meaningless interpretation completely. But now we see it presented as a truly accurate depiction.
The rough sketch of MacIntyre's was at the time the one we all know - rather light on detail (unlike his later and far more detailed scale diagram) - position of the four gang members, two logs. Now that is a primary source being made soon after the affraY.
Yes indeed it is a rough sketch; but remarkably able to be related to Macs later detailed diagram.
Perhaps all the sketches done should be referred to so that all can be considered primary sources??

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Thu 21 Feb - 10:52:12

Kelvyn and Glenn,
This debate is about the orientation of the Burman photo at SBC.
Why don't you start by putting up your case as per your CSI report document, then the readers will be able to compare.

This sketch and related text below is primary source material and must not be ignored.


Red angle shows McIntyre's Map logs, Green angle shows Burman photo logs direction being south.


This news paper article accompanied the Sydney Mail sketch reads -

" Being drawn from a rough sketch, made at our request by constable McIntyre, the sole survivor of the police engaged,very shortly after the outrage, when every detail was fresh in his memory, its general correctness can be relied upon."

It is now up to the CSI team to state their case.

How much longer will it take?


Last edited by Bill Denheld on Sun 24 Feb - 19:33:58; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : accompanied // add direction south // addsole survivor)

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Kelvyn on Thu 21 Feb - 13:56:14

Bill,It seems you are incapable of comprehension of statements previously posted.
The CSI team has created the most extensive and thoroughly researched report WHICH HAS BEEN PROVIDED TO ALL OF THE APPROPRIATE AUTHORITIES AND GOVERNMENT AGENCIES for their consideration, and eventual determination of the merits of our claim.
IT is they, and only they, who will make any decision concerning the CSI Team's claims - which have not required any continual modification (unlike your stuff) since being first prepared. Yes, some additional information (for example the emergence of the seasonal spring(s) in the later part of 2012) but the substance of the report is and continues to be unassailable.
Your "huff & bluff" stuff posted here is doing nothing for your claim which should be pursued with the appropriate Governmental agencies and Departments.
A circus event at Stringybark Creek (with it seems you as the ringmaster, clowns, and tightrope walker) is just that, and contributes nothing to the debate except more noise to be consigned to the dustbin for detritus. Its not the first time you have run your show with erroneous material. A tip: Spend your time communicating (and presenting your views)with the Government agencies; a far more positive channeling of your energies I would suggest.


Last edited by Kelvyn on Thu 21 Feb - 13:57:22; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : removal of an extraneous letter g)

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Fri 22 Feb - 14:54:06

Bill,
Re your post 19th Feb.

Glenn,I am not avoiding anything.

“You last say " By avoiding the evidence placed before you in my previous posting I take it you have no answer. Or do not want to accept it."

“I have stated my case. I am not into answering nit picking issues after I have already answered you on the top of this page9- 17th Feb - a reply to your post.”

Obviously I do not agree with your demonstration provided on top of this page. – As:
The sun direction as indicated came from a similar direction as the (nearly) east west log.
Not across the log as you have demonstrated but along or nearly along this log.

Back to nit picking.

Both in the trees and on the ground the light came from the NW as indicated.



The sunlight could not have come from the right side of the limb circled.
Therefore do not match the orientation at the two hut site.



The above image courtesy of the police historical unit.
Within the full size Burman 1 image distinct light and shade areas can be seen.
Left side of the tree branches.
Left side of the seated man, shoulder, hat and boots.
Left side of the standing man from his boot to his hat.
Plus other distinctive areas as shown.

The log angle of the nearly east west log (above) is now in accordance with Bill’s log angles and McIntyre’s descriptions.

The sun direction as indicated came from a similar direction as the (nearly) east west log. Or almost along the nearly east west log.
In accordance with the sun movements the images would have been taken between 2 & 3pm. on that day.

In addition to the above matching sun angles.

It has previously been established and agreed that there is no spring at the two hut site.
There is a spring, declivity, boggy ground and spear grasses actually near the Kelly tree location,
plus many other matching features.

Glenn


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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Kelvyn on Tue 24 Dec - 9:44:41

Christmas best wishes to the True Believers.
And now for a few words:http://illiweb.com/fa/i/smiles/icon_eek.gif
In the Fitzsimons book there are two "sketches" done supposedly as "historical accurate" views of the police camp ground at SBC. Seems to me that they are not consistent in the depiction of the stump with the tomahawk embedded in it - Lonigan is shown very near to it in the south-west view yet in the north-west view he has miraculously got across the log and is now not near the stump!!; the tent seems to have morphed from facing into the V of the logs where McIntyre stands with arms raised and with the remains of a burnt hut to the tent's left, yet the remains in the second sketch have magically moved to be only slightly to the left of the front of the tent's left side.
What appears to be representing the Creek in the north-west sketch is mighty close to the camp, nothing like the 70 yards (give or take) from the camp site!!
So, masquerading amongst all of the other pics which are truly historically primary evidence are two sketches "after photo by Burman and description by McIntyre" which can be more accurately described as created "after BD" and his erroneous claim as to the correct site of the police camp..

Oh, and the pic from the Beautiful Mansfield booklet with the three men in it which is shown in the CSI@SBC report was taken by a Mansfield based photographer by the surname of Vallance.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  brian murphy on Thu 13 Mar - 9:55:21

Hello Bill,
Here's to a new start.

Recently on another forum I raised a series of questions of which one was promptly answered. However one other still remains unanswered.
I will put that question to you again.


On the 12/March/2014 @ 9.23am I wrote:
Where exactly YOUR spring can to be found? Does it flow all year round? I'm intrigued.
You replied:
Yes Brian, The Spring flows past the two huts site all year round, while a few hundred metres up the gully* you will find no running water at all.
*(beyond the discharge point)


I then replied to the effect of:
Is this the same body of water that flows to the east of the hut sites? more commonly known as "stringy bark crk"

Bill,
I will ask the question once more.
Is this the same body of water that flows to the east of the hut sites? more commonly known as "stringy bark crk"

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kelly tree

Post  brian murphy on Thu 13 Mar - 13:25:41

Glen, kel
I need some clarification re the Kelly.
How is it possible to positively identify the "tree" in the burman photo and claim it to be that of the modern day kelly tree. Also is it possible the person who branded modern day "kelly tree" with the armour infact branded the wrong tree?

More to come as we progress.

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Kelly trees

Post  Kelvyn on Thu 13 Mar - 16:35:31

Gooday Brian.
There are a number of eucalypt species in the area.
The present day tree is a Manna Gum. The people who identified the tree species can by looking at the "typical" profile of bark type, bark formation (solid trunk covering, stringy bark spotted bark etc etc) can identify trees from photographs.
Hence the certainty of identification in a photograph and in the looking at the tree(s) on-site. Trunk formation is also another way to identify a young tree to a more mature specimen.
The present day tree was the work of Tim Brond, a neighbour of the Beasleys. This tree by the way isn't far from where the Beasley tree (late 1920's Charlie Beasley placed a fingerboard marker on a ringbarked tree. Its upper section had broken off and rot had set in, and white ants finished it off in the early 1940s. nearby
Tim Brond marked the forked Manna Gum - he carved the names of the three police into it.
In 1985 the tree became officially identified as the Kelly Tree. The metal plaque (now almost grown over) replaced the carved names with only Lonigan's name remaining visible.
The estimated life left for this tree has been advised to the CSI team as around 50 years (the tree is in the order of being 200 years old now).
The "Cuddon photograph" has the second Kelly tree with the fingerboard on it.

Oh, and there is truly a fine specimen of a Manna Gum in the left background - Tree no 3!
Hope this info helps.
Regards
Kelvyn

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kellytree

Post  brian murphy on Fri 14 Mar - 15:36:10

Hello Kelvyn
Now thats cleared that up.

Another Q. for the team.

re cuddon fingerboard photo

Is it fair to say to the R of cuddon's shoulder is the modern day kelly tree? I think so!

Also using the cuddon photo it appears that there is no noticeable slope, just flattish ground. Are my  observations correct if I were to say the cameraman was facing towards the north east? and just missed out capturing the slope.
Directly behind cuddon; it appears that the ground forms two relatively high creek banks. what are you thoughts on that? are my eyes deceiving me.  

Bill,
What are you thoughts?

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Cuddon and tree photograph

Post  Kelvyn on Fri 14 Mar - 17:02:52

Brian. Indeed you have explained the photograph correctly.
If you refer to the report at 4.2.2. you can read that the Team says the current Kelly Tree is behind and to the left of Cuddon's right shoulder.
The photograph was taken looking towards the North East; the creek is in the background.
The orientation of the tree to the clearly visible shoulder of the landscape as it begins its downward fall to the Creek in the middle background is obvious.
The photograph also shows the extent of the impact of both heavy cattle grazing and timber removal since 1878. This openness reveals the rising ground of the creek's eastern bank, which is noticeably steeper as it descends from its eastern shoulder to the creek bed.
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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  brian murphy on Sun 16 Mar - 12:11:28

Is this the rising ground outlined in red?
Thanks to your reply Kelvyn, Dad was clearly able to make out the obvious.


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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Kelvyn on Sun 16 Mar - 15:36:09

Brian. Gooday. Absolutely the red line is showing the rising ground.
Any "good" map with contour lines will clearly show rising ground on the eastern bank: Heritage Victoria Diagram 2205 Stringybark Creek Site: VHR number H2205 (Appendix in our report) has contours shown, This map is based on the Vicmap 1:25000 series. See also Vicmap Whitfield 8124-S. 1:50000 map series (in our report where the orientation of the Beautiful Mansfield photo is discussed.
Please email me.

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Rise & tree

Post  brian murphy on Mon 17 Mar - 11:22:42

Why then is there so much debate into the correct site? With the current tree being marked well before the teams investigation. The site had been known for decades, and yet other researches are disagreeing. WHY?
The current kelly tree site and I say this according to our (Dad and I) short but brief investigation into the camp site. Thus far we have identified *Slope *Kelly tree *creek *sword grass *declivity. The sources that Dad and I worked with were of course Mcintyres notes and the csi report.
Bills, extensive report was also used. However it's more or less centred around the old hut site. Bills work is convincing and impressive and we take our hat of too him! However the facts do not add up. In the next fortnight or so, Dad and I will be camping overnight at stringybark in the hope of getting more ground work done.

Bill, would you like to have a say? Here's to a sensible discussion!


Question
re huts at the csi site.

* Has the team identified for certain the huts within the kelly tree region?
* What are their dimensions?
* Can the team place the huts precisely where they should be? As per Mcintyr.
We searched for signs and/or remnants but to no avail. if the huts do exists they're proving to be very elusive.




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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Mon 17 Mar - 17:07:04

Brian,
I gave up posting here because I did not join a closed shop.

Kelvyn asked you to email him regarding the Mr Cuddon photo which, by the way needs to have proper citations attributed to the photo 'Courtesy Engelke family in WA'.
The Engelke family photos were scanned by me for use in debate about SBC but they need to be citied. It was I that identified the current Kelly tree in the Mr.Cuddon photo.

Incidentally the Cuddon family read these forums ( if it was Open) so should be respected too.

I have asked for you to ring me early March so we can have a chat but showed little or no respect.

I will only answer here this once your Questions-



* Has the CSI team identified for certain the huts within the kelly tree region?
[color:7978=#000000
]
Answer, NO huts, I was the first to detect the whole area back in 1985 and apart from a few rusty nails and melted aluminum in what looked like some campers fire ashes just near the road boundary opposite the Kelly tree, the whole was barren.    

* What are their dimensions?  
Negative -There were none.

* Can the team place the huts precisely where they should be? As per Mcintyr. We searched for signs and/or remnants but to no avail. if the huts do exists they're proving to be very elusive

No Brian, the CSI team cannot place their huts on the ground as there is no evidence of huts near the Kelly tree area, nor is there a 'Spring', they have no Slope, they falsely orientate the Burman photo to North East when it is proven to be looking South.

I am surprised by your showing an orange and yellow line on the Mr Cuddon photo.
What you high light with those lines is only the eroded banks of the creek as it was then and still is today. The orange angle show no slope. In the distant (right) the ground gradually rises but is not a slope as in the Burman photo.
You say you will be camping at SBC in the next fortnight. Would you like me to meet you there? Send me an email with phone No to - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
Bill


PS; Brian you need to read this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  brian murphy on Tue 18 Mar - 17:45:05

Hello Bill,
You certainly given us a few good points to consider. More on this later.

Quote taken from- [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Photo 10
A pile of rocks, but absolutely no other indication it was a hut site? wrote:

Though we have not sighted the "pile of rocks" can you absolutely without any doubt place your reputation on that fact? Please dont take it as being disrespectful towards you.

This is my point, correct us if we are wrong.
For a great number of decades the McCrum's and/or miners, lived and worked all along that zone. Therefore is it possible that the McCrum's/and or Miners knew of that particular "pile of rocks" and removed a rock or two?
Perhaps a camper in the later years came along and totally destroyed what was once an obvious structure.



Bill,
Which official body has proven that the Burman photo is "looking South"?

The csi team,
Please provide a photo's of the "spring" in which you are both adamant exists and doesn't exists.


Last edited by brian murphy on Tue 18 Mar - 17:47:57; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Added quote)

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importance of the KT

Post  mitchell o'conner on Wed 19 Mar - 18:49:12

Although I'm new to both the story and the forum. I do appreciate the wealth of information and how fortunate we are to have the likes of Bill, Kelvyn and Glenn in the one place. Well worth sitting back and waiting for the slow and steady pace in which the information is brought to us. Keep it up Men!

One thing that has been troubling me after reading all the literature. What is the importance of the Kelly tree? How does it tie in with the story?

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Fri 21 Mar - 16:22:05

Hello Michell,

Welcome aboard. Thank you for your kind words and encouragement.

The first tree which became known as the Kelly tree was marked by stray bullets during the encounter. This tree became a landmark to the location of the site. Unfortunately this tree was cut down for timber in 1908.
During the 1920s as Kelvyn has said another tree was marked by locals nearby until it’s demise in the 1940s. Which leads to the current Kelly tree.
Up until around 1993 the site was generally accepted as being near the current Kelly tree.
During that time Ian Jones presented his theory that the site was incorrect and has since been officially recognised and sign posted as being some distance further up the creek and on the opposite side. East side of the creek.
In 2002 Bill discovered two old fireplaces opposite Ian’s site which in turn led him to question Ian’s theory and test his own.

One thing we can all agree on is that the current recognised (Ian Jone’s) site is not correct.

By matching the current Kelly tree to the same location and tree as in the "Cuddon photograph” enables us to use this image:

To prove the location of the second tree and the current tree
Compare the lay of the land to the Burman images and descriptions provided by constable McIntyre, Ned Kelly etc.
Compare the location and the tree to the CSI teams findings and conclusions
And if possible identify the tree within the Burman images. (Which we believe we have done)

Others may want to add to this …

Best regards,
Glenn

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  brian murphy on Sun 30 Mar - 9:52:00

Hello Bill,
My posts still remain unanswered from Tue 18 March, three posts up.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  mitchell o'conner on Mon 31 Mar - 11:41:16

Hello Glen
Thanks for clearing up the KT dilemma. Now I can move on. However, I find myself stuck with trying to compare the lay of the land to the Burman images.

To prove the location of the second tree and the current tree Compare the lay of the land to the Burman images and descriptions provided by constable McIntyre, Ned Kelly etc. Compare the location and the tree to the CSI teams findings and conclusions And if possible identify the tree within the Burman images. (Which we believe we have done) wrote:


I've tried in vain to match a modern day photo with the old Burman photo, though I feel I'm missing something.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Tue 1 Apr - 12:09:42

Hello Mitchell,

Within the Mr Cuddon photo,
A forked Manna gum can be seen on the left background. (The present day Kelly tree)

The ground shown in the Cuddon photo is flattish ground receding down towards the creek. (As is the ground south of the current tree)
The tree in the image is some distance from the creek line. (As is the current tree)

The sunlight reflecting on the left of the tree and on the mans left shoulder in the image does indicate that the camera was facing north/easterly.

Within the image on the far side of the creek there is a slope that rises from up the creek bank, the top of this slope decreases from right to the left. ( As in the Burman images.)
On the far side of the creek to the right (south) of the current Kelly tree, there is also a slope that decreases from right to left.
The height of this slope increases further south (right) of the current tree. (Not seen in the Cuddon image)

The distance from the edge of the creek to the side of the present day tree was measured at approx. 27 yards.
About 55 yards north/east  of our suggested police tent location
The tent being located at a measured distance of 70 yards from the creek.

The current Kelly tree (with the armour) the forked manna gum, we believe is located directly behind the hat of the man seated on the log in the Burman plate 2 image. Second tree back.
(Plate 2 image being the one showing a wider view of the camp site or with the two blackened posts.)

I was skeptical myself initially as the tree is not clearly visible within the image.  
However, by cross referencing the location with the other available information I am now satisfied.

What modern day image are you trying to match?  One of your own or one taken by someone else?

It seems that no one will be satisfied until some before and after images are produced.
If you are looking for a current image taken with a digital camera to match the Burman images you may be disappointed.
Not trying to be difficult,  but trees and undergrowth that weren’t there now are and trees they were there are now gone. That is why the current Kelly tree is so important. Besides, I think the land itself can tell us more than modern images can do.

Hope this helpful.

Regards,
               Glenn

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

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