orientation of burman photos at sbc

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Sat 19 Jan - 14:44:56

Quote from above "By all accounts poor McIntyre must have been very confused." Bill.

It would appear that McIntyre was not the only one confused. If indeed he was.


Extracts from - Stringybark the authentic location. July '12
Page 4. "Having read through Constable McIntyre's numerous accounts, statements and memiors it is clear he had a keen eye for detail."
Page 21. "McIntyre none the less gave detailed accounts of the Stringybark Ck incident that allow us research and pin point the true site of the killings"

McIntyre provided a perfectly good diagram of the log layout, tent location along with detailed descriptions.

Why is it that difficult for us to use them?

Cheers, Glenn

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Sat 19 Jan - 17:18:50

Glenn,
I think what the readers want to know is-

If McIntyre claims the Burman photo was looking North East as all readers can now see your page 81 map of the Kelly tree location, See links on my above posting.

Without question your orientation of the Burman photo looking north east sets CSI@SBC in concrete. Either admit Mc's map is wrong or his texts are wrong!

Please explain to the readers how your team can believe McIntyre's written details as gospel when the figures in the Burman photo were facing NORTH, when your page 81 map would have them facing SOUTH ???

We all know the returning police came back from the north.

McIntyre can't have it both ways, and he was either very confused or just thought nobody would notice the mistakes 135 years later.
Bill

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Sat 19 Jan - 18:11:03

Hi Bill,

Where does McIntyre claim that the Burman photo is looking N/E?
What he does say that the image shows the ground on which Lonigan & Scanlan were shot. Not just Lonigan.

Our orientation of the Burman1 image is looking ENE. Not N/E.

Nor did I say our team believe McIntyre's written details should be taken as gospel. What I did say was McIntyre provided a perfectly good diagram of the log layout, tent location along with detailed descriptions. Why is it that difficult for us to use them?

McIntyre was not there with Burman when he took his images. It is your opinion that the figures in the images are facing North. Re page 22 your document. Even then they must be moved to suit your scenario.
The standing figure with his arm raised could just as easily be meant to represent McIntyre. In any case they are as we both say actors placed for photo convenience. Which ever way they are looked at the figures shown in the images are not correct. Burman took his images to sell for profit, not to be used as forensic evidence.

It is my opinion that too much importance has been placed on the positions of these figures.

Cheers, Glenn

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Sat 19 Jan - 19:11:41

Hi again bill,

Hello Joe,
If I knew what your question was I could probably say yes or no!
By all accounts poor McIntyre must have been very confused.

Bill, pls don't insult my intelligence - you know exactly the question I was asking. You committed to it by answering YES - twice!

By all accounts poor McIntyre must have been very confused.

NO, NO, NO absolutely not.

Before I started working within the Construction industry I spent over 20 yrs within the security sector - and in that time I've had my share of incidents involving me being stabbed, squirted with blood filled syringe, countless broken noises, attacked by offenders wielding tomahawks, hammers and the most threatening incident was coming face to face with a low life mongrel, pointing a pistol at me.

At no time was I CONFUSED - I even managed to give a clear and concise statement to police each and every time in full incident details. As did poor McIntyre.

Chat soon
joey




Last edited by joey. on Sat 19 Jan - 19:15:20; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spelling mistake)

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Sat 19 Jan - 19:19:51

Joe, please repeat the question.
Bill

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Guest on Sun 20 Jan - 2:49:41

Bob, firstly the 2 drawings by Mac only show the detail that was required and to suit the size of the paper written on. Especially in the second more detailed one, he was demonstrating where all the players were at different stages. There was no need to show the end of the east-west log as it had no significance to anyone’s position and secondly he had to leave room for his explanation. It you take that into consideration then the drawing matches the photos and also Mac’s description printed below. At every opportunity you have sunk the slipper into KC2000 which was extremely unfair and unwarranted. Nowhere else has this subject been scrutinised so thoroughly or by so many. You pulled up stumps on that discussion too, so you may have missed some vital points. How can you have a debate about something without different points of view? I don’t believe a lot of what Mac said, though in this case I do.

1890 (Circa) My manuscript - A True Narrative of the Kelly Gang. Reminiscences of a Victorian Mounted Constable. A Narrative of the Kelly Gang and Other Bushrangers.(Can be seen at the Victoria Police on-line repository).
Sergt. Kennedy had selected a clear place near an old burnt hut as the most suitable for our camping ground as it was out of danger of any timber which might fall from the forest trees. Out tent was pitched near the north west corner of this clearing which was partly natural and partly caused by human agency. The entrance to the tent was facing east and also the creek which was about 70 yards distant. Standing at the tent entrance and facing the creek there was upon the left front a felled tree nearly 4 ft in diameter, at the thickest part. It lay nearly east and west. About midway this log was joined by another which lay due north and south and terminated where it joined the other. These two logs thus formed two right angles, the point of junction being about 25 yards from the tent. On your right or the south side of the clearing the ground was free of timber and being of a swampy nature there was a luxuriant growth of rushes and other course herbage. These together with a slight declivity in the formation in that direction afforded a good cover to within 20 yards of our tent for any party wishing to attack our camp, and it was from this position we were attacked, the south side or up the creek.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Sun 20 Jan - 10:27:48

Hello Glenn,

You ask me "Where does McIntyre claim that the Burman photo is looking N/E?" I quote from what was 'our' SBC investigation webpage - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

In section "The question of Orientation"- not far below the first map of SBC sites -

Quote - " From Police correspondence accompanying McIntyre's sworn statement referring to the Burman photos, McIntyre states- 'Both photos were taken from the direction of the bottom left hand corner"

Check PHU files. Kelvyn may best know where to find McIntyre's sworn statement to do with the map.

With this information we can see McIntyre was very confused if he also considered the photo evidence, and of what side of the log he sat on looking North.
Please read my first posting again on page1 of this thread.
Bill

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Guest on Sun 20 Jan - 10:58:07

Bill too much has been made of the figures in the Burman photos. They are irrelevant and would be just props used by Burman to either make the photos more interesting or to give perspective to the area and size of logs. Mac states that the photos represent the camp, he does not mention the figures. Has anyone come across any documents that state that these figures were supposed to represent anyone at all? From Mc’s own descriptions of events and their camp, the photos have to have been taken facing a north easterly direction.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Sun 20 Jan - 17:55:07

I am joining Robert in not participating any further as this CSI group is not presenting any positive evidence to support their case.

This lack of rational debate does not lend itself to any positive outcome one way or the other, and I can only see historical truth being the casualty if more rational thinking people don't get behind this debate.

To his credit Admin 'Chuck' has provided us with a dedicated forum to discuss what is a technically a difficult subject that requires more than just personal opinion, however, to date the main players seem to have axes to grind.

I will follow this forum with interest and will continue to provide positive input if best evidence is not being ignored at every turn.

Bill Denheld
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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Mon 21 Jan - 9:22:37

Hiya Bob,

Honestly - I'm lost words.

I'm simply voicing my very own opinion, whether it be right OR wrong. I've never force my theory upon anyone. Yes, I totally disagree with Bill's work - why? l'll point it out in point form.
1. log orientation
2. slope
3. distances
4. Manipulation of Historical facts. (Pet hate)

Correct me if I'm wrong - have I/we not entered into a debate .... a debate where thoughts, ideas, etc, is the nature of this debate? Thus far we have obviously NOT agreed with one another. Therefore the debate must/should continue.

I'm truly at a loss as to why your pulling the pin - if you have been offended by my feedback ...... accept my apology.

Just quickly - when visiting SBC with my guests (tours) they're shown the 3 sites - being .....

1. Ian Jones site.
2. Bill's site.
3. CSI@SBC site

I have never given an unbiased talk about any of the sites - I allow them to ponder and make up their own minds.
I have gone to great lengths to prepare and hand out "FREE" info booklets for my guests. It's comprehensive, literature and photos make up the bulk of the booklet. In the very last pages are links to the KC forum, Bills site and last but not least a plug for the CSI@SBC report.

All is unbiased without forcing any opinion on anyone.


"SUCH IS LIFE"

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Kelvyn on Mon 21 Jan - 16:24:44

Oh dear, a few days break from all this and to see what has transpired simply leads me to repeat a comment I mad a while ago, but before doing so I must address acouple of statements made recently:
Quote - " From Police correspondence accompanying McIntyre's sworn statement referring to the Burman photos, McIntyre states- 'Both photos were taken from the direction of the bottom left hand corner"

Could I be given the reference in PRO citation form for where this staement was made as I cannot recall ever seeing it??

And
Check PHU files. Kelvyn may best know where to find McIntyre's sworn statement to do with the map.
In this case I assume this reference is to the detailed map and not the rough sketch map first made by McIntyre.
In that case let me be very clear yet again:
This map fell out of one of McIntyre's scrapbooks held by the McIntyre descendents till the scrapbooks were donated to the Victoria Police Museum, and then many years later were being examined by the then Museum manager when the map fell from the pages of one of the scrapbooks. There is no sworn statement regarding this document!
I would contend that the map is most likely to be the "accompanying engraving" referred to by McIntyre at page 34 of his manuscript - available on the police web site.


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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Thu 24 Jan - 9:49:55

I answer questions asked by Kelvyn and Glenn.

With Glenn not accepting that McIntyre was 'confused', and Kelvyn's unawareness of McIntyre's sworn statement to which I referred in my posting Sun 20 Jan, where in I wrote-
Quote - " From Police correspondence accompanying McIntyre's sworn statement referring to the Burman photos, McIntyre states- 'Both photos were taken from the direction of the bottom left hand corner" Bill

Kelvyn then asks -
" Could I be given the reference in PRO citation form for where this staement was made as I cannot recall ever seeing it?? Kelvyn

I cannot now give the PROV citations, The information came from Keith McMenomy's book 'Ned Kelly, the Authenticated History', page 254 - 1984 edition, citation #39 - " From Police Dept Corresp. op.cit. Accompanying Mcintyres sworn statement"
McIntyre Sketch on page 83, 2001 edition, - citation - Keeper of VPRO.
See image below [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

By McIntyre stating the photos align with his sketch from the bottom left hand corner, Mc was certainly confusing his maps with the Burman photos.

On the one hand, Mc tells us the photos represent the police camp with Kelly on his right, the sun sank to the left = West, therefore the photo is looking south. While McIntyre was not present for the photo taken 11 days later, Ed Monk who accompanied Mc to find the bodies was there.
Ed Monk knew exactly the camp orientation to guide Burman to take the photos looking South with the figures looking Northerly from the logs.

However the exact position of the figures is not correct as we all agree, and were compressed to the left of the photo, otherwise the raised arm man representing Kennedy on his return coming from North westerly direction was facing south easterly in the photo, but in reality way out of the photos to the far right.
Bill


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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Fri 25 Jan - 15:18:16

Joe wrote Sun 20 Jan,
Quote - " I'm simply voicing my very own opinion, whether it be right OR wrong. I've never force my theory upon anyone. Yes, I totally disagree with Bill's work - why? l'll point it out in point form.
1. log orientation
2. slope
3. distances

4. Manipulation of Historical facts. (Pet hate)


Joe, can you now elaborate on your Pet hate, 'Manipulation of Historical facts'
I'm sure the readers would like to know what they are ' in your opinion' ?

And also, you say you are an unbiased tour guide for SBC tours that hands out free info booklets.
On the 19 Jan on SBC thread you also say " I have nothing but respect for Bill" I say this without hesitation" , but Joe if you have this high respect for me, have you ever thought of asking me to accompany you to SBC, and I could have personally shown you my findings there, and then you may have been better qualified to be a tour leader.

Isn't it time to stop believing in historical facts and start accepting historical facts!

Bill


Last edited by Bill Denheld on Fri 25 Jan - 17:02:16; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : P in respect)

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Tue 29 Jan - 15:54:02

Since we don't seem to be having any debate on orientation of the Burman photos,
I am going to show you why the CSI@SBC Report document is wrong.


The first reason CSI@SBC have got their orientation wrong

Here is the orientation map the CSI team believe in -

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/csi-at-sbc-linton-site-map2.jpg

In the upper map, the CSI team reckon the two black lines at near right angles represent the logs in the Burman photo and the red array is the CSI choice of Burman's view orientation looking E.North East.

Now consider, - This 1878 photo by Burman was taken to show where the troopers were shot.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/burman1.jpg

Here is the point-
Seated McIntyre, said "Kelly was on his right", ( this is correct ). Mc said "Kelly was on the creek side".
and Mc said as they waited for the returning police "the Sun sank to the left" - ( the west side).

So, if the CSI team agree the Burman photo represents the logs where Const Lonigan was shot they have the figures on the south side of the logs, and are looking southerly, - but we know the returning police officers came from the north. So they had their back to them! This well demonstrates the CSI team is 180 degrees around the wrong way.
The Burman photos were taken looking southerly, not northerly.
Bill

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Kelvyn on Tue 29 Jan - 17:38:21

1. The diagram is NOT that used in the CSI@SBC report. Go get the correct diagram Bill , Sorry that means you will need to buy a copy.
2. McIntyre soon before or as the returning police were heard "moved" aqnd sat on the log facing the direction of the returning police. lo and behold on his RIGHT concealed in the junction of the two logs was NED!
3. Correct the sun sank in the WEST to Mcs left!
4.Ned was on the CREEK SIDE of Mc (who by then was facing north)when the police returned.

Oh my oh my It seems that all players in this episode occurring over time were static dummies. No movement, no nothing and a group of staged models make it all true!!

PS A SPRING CREEK: In Victoria NO not at SBC but check it out where it crosses (and is marked) on the Anglesea Road near Freshwater Creek.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Tue 29 Jan - 19:08:29

Kelvyn now wants me to show the current CSI@SBC document page as being any different to the one I had shown previouly, but it is the same diagram with an additional array, where the 'Beautiful Mansfield photo' was taken, but we will explore that later.

The only difference between the two are the colours of the arrays.
No thanks Kel, I won't bother to buy another copy.

Readers, here is the current diagram map on page 81, CSI@SBC report-

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/csi-at-sbc-kelvyn-site-map1.jpg

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Kelvyn on Tue 29 Jan - 21:16:45

15:54 then 19:08 = 3hours and 14 minutes till the correct diagram is shown.
Either the mail arrived with a copy of the correct report or perhaps an acolyte provided the requisite diagram? Nevermind at last material posted is of the correct vintage.
And on this matter I will have more to say shortly.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Kelvyn on Tue 29 Jan - 21:58:43

Sorry folks but it is necessary to restate from an earlier posting so that what I now say can be seen in the context of the statements made:
Viz:
Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc
Bill Denheld on Thu 24 Jan - 9:49:55
I answer questions asked by Kelvyn and Glenn.
With Glenn not accepting that McIntyre was 'confused', and Kelvyn's unawareness of McIntyre's sworn statement to which I referred in my posting Sun 20 Jan, where in I wrote-
Quote - " From Police correspondence accompanying McIntyre's sworn statement referring to the Burman photos, McIntyre states- 'Both photos were taken from the direction of the bottom left hand corner" Bill
Kelvyn then asks -
" Could I be given the reference in PRO citation form for where this staement was made as I cannot recall ever seeing it?? Kelvyn
I cannot now give the PROV citations, The information came from Keith McMenomy's book 'Ned Kelly, the Authenticated History', page 254 - 1984 edition, citation #39 - " From Police Dept Corresp. op.cit. Accompanying Mcintyres sworn statement"
McIntyre Sketch on page 83, 2001 edition, - citation - Keeper of VPRO.

So here I have to now correct yet another misrepresentation
No, Bill I am well aware of all of McIntyre’s statements having read them all:
So for the record here is a complete list:
1. Report to the Chief Commissioner of Police from the Mansfield Police Station:
PROV, VPRS4966, Unit 1 Item 1.

2. Scale diagram of the police camp site.
VPHU: RN3847.

3. Deposition. 1 November, 1878, Inquest – Kennedy.
PROV, VPRS 4969, Unit 1, Item 24.

4. Deposition. 29 October, 1878, Inquests – Scanlan & Lonigan.
PROV, VPRS 4969, Unit 1, Item 23.

5. Statement - City Police Court. Queen v Edward Kelly.
PROV, VPRS 4966, Unit 2, Item 8:

6. Additional to above statement (22.7.80)
PROV, VPRS 4966, Unit 1, Item 2.

7. Transcript of evidence, with notations, 6 & 7 August, 1880 .
PROV, VPRS 4969, Unit 1, Item 25.

8. Beechworth Committal hearing report.
The Age 6 & 7 August, 1880.

9. Deposition. 11 August 1880.
PROV, VPRS 4966, Unit 2, Item 8.

10. Brief for the Prosecution. 15 October 1880. Sworn statement - sworn before Foster p.m. 7 August 1880.
PROV, VPRS 4966, Unit 1, Item 6.

11. Melbourne Supreme Court The Argus report. 28 October 1880.

12. Redmond Barry’s report for His Excellency the Governor of Victoria.
PROV, VPRS 4966, Unit 2, Item 10.

13. Reward Board claim. 13 November 1880.
PROV, VPRS 4967, Unit 2, Item 58.

14. Typescript: A Narrative of my experience with THE KELLY GANG. And a short account of other Bushrangers.
SLV. MS6343, Box 30319.

15. Manuscript: Reminiscences of a Victorian Mounted Constable. A Narrative of the Kelly Gang and other Bushrangers.
VPHU. VPM2991. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

16. Royal Commission Tuesday August 2, 1881. Questions 14319 – 14414.

PROV: Public Records Office, Victoria. SLV: State Library Victoria. VPHU: Victoria Police Historical Unit

NOW THE REFERENCE GIVEN BY BILL:
The book is not the “History” Book. It is in fact, the 1984 “Story” book.
The 1984 edition says: Page 83:
A Sketch thought to have been made by McIntyre showing how the Kellys first appeared when they called from the speargrass. The position of the logs can be compared with the two photographs following, of the camp; both were taken from the direction of the bottom left hand corner.
McMenomy is correct in his “interpretation” of the position of the camera. McIntyre DID NOT SAY THIS. McMENOMY IS DESCRIBING THE RELATIONSHIP OF McINTYRE’S SKETCHED LOGS TO THOSE DEPICTED IN THE TWO BURMAN IMAGES, AS HE BELIEVES WAS THE POSITION OF THE CAMERA.

Now the reference (39. Page 254) says:
From Police Dept Corresp., op.cit, accompanying McIntyre’s sworn statement.
Absolutely correct – With McIntyre’s sworn statement was the sketch.
No words as implied by Bill exist. I.E. McINTYRE DID NOT DESCRIBE THE DIRECTION OF THE CAMERA VIEW.


So now we look to the later 2001 edition of the book – the “History”
Page 89:
A sketch, thought to have been made by McIntyre, showing how the Kellys first appeared when they called ‘bail up!’ from the speargrass. Compare the position of the logs with the following photographs of the camp.
NO INTERPRETATION OF THE CAMERA POSITION IS NOW MADE BY McMENOMY

Page 278:
McIntyre’s sketch in PC accompanying McIntyre’s sworn statement, KP, VPRO

NO WORDS HERE EITHER ABOUT CAMERA POSITION or DIRECTION.

And for factual correctness:
PC is Police Correspondence;
KP is Kelly Papers not “Keeper”; and
VPRO is Victorian Public Records Office.

LET’S GET THE FACTS RIGHT SO OTHERS CAN MAKE JUDGEMENT BASED ON FACTS AND NOT ON HALF BAKED ANALYSIS MADE TO SUIT A PROPOSITION.
McINTYRE DID NOT MAKE THE STATEMENT CLAIMED !!
History needs to be cited and used correctly.

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Wed 30 Jan - 15:52:44

Thank you Kelvyn,
We all appreciate your explanation especially those 16 items, very handy for this Burman photo Orientation debate !

May I ask though, that when you 'quote' someone in this space that you use another colour to differentiate, like you seem to be able to do in red.

To the readers I make these points-

A ),
When a book ' McMenomy's N.K -- Story --History has an 'op.cit' - meaning 'in the work cited', accompanying 'McIntyre's sworn statement' , we can not discount the assumption McIntyre may well have stated " The photographs" -- -- -- " both were taken from the direction of the bottom left hand corner.[39]"

Yes I know he may have referred to the sketch, but just because you (Kelvyn) had not seen this statement before, neither in McMenomy's book nor in McIntyre's statements, does not discount that Mc did not write this !

B ),
When we first met up with Linton Briggs at StringyBark Creek in May 2009, you had not established any particular Burman photo view orientation or location for the police camp, although when I showed you the slope options at the two huts you agreed that was important.

Then when Linton showed us his preferred site near the current Kelly tree -see map below site 3A.
which is west across the road with the Burman photo looking to the south.

It was only when I pointed out to you all that, in that direction there was no slope to speak of, (only a gentle rise). This threw a spanner in Linton's forty year long held belief of where the camp site had been. Not to be deterred, Linton the next day professed his orientation had been wrong and turned his Burman photo view about 100 degrees to the left looking straight over the road and across over SBC where there maybe a slope on the other side of the creek. see 3B on map
But in this direction any SBC east bank slope is more than 120 metres distant, and nothing like in the Burman photo, even if we turn to the East North east, or East South east.



Map - w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/locationmap.jpg

I totally disagreed with this 3B view scenario as laughable and I let you all know including Gary Dean who only turned up once for one hour, he offered no opinion and left.

All this happened 3 months before the 'new' McIntyre map had been located at Kelvyn's request to VPHU Curator Lis Marsden in August 2009. As it happened Kel has explained, when they opened the McIntyre Manuscript folder the map fell to the floor. Kelvyn then sent Lis an email asking permission to use the map in the CSI document.

It was then that the CSI@SBC team seized upon the map as Linton's orientation saviour, as proof of the logs orientation because there was drawn the 'tent' in the south west corner facing two logs as well as compass point bearings and figures notating positions on the map.

Members of the CSI team must have thought all their Xmas's had come at once with this sensational revelation? But this was no proof of the Burman photos orientation. No.
I will show you why not in my next posting.

What the CSI team and others don't want to understand is that the two logs McIntyre drew are not the same two front on logs as in the Burman photos. Mc's logs are the ones to the right of the photos.
The left log in the photos were not even drawn by McIntyre.

C ),
Now to get back to McMenomy's book 1984 Ed, page 83, and the 'op.cit' where it said "both ( photos) were taken from the direction of the bottom left hand corner[39]

This statement together with the new found 'McIntyre map' was enough for the CSI team to set the Burman photo orientation in concrete looking North East from the west bank of SBC - but I could not agree.* But by what Kelvyn has indicated they had not been aware of # [39], but apart from Mc's map there must have been substance behind their decision to face the Burman photos to the E. North East ? I asked Linton and even drove up to Glenrowan from Melbourne to show him his mistake but there was no reasonable explanation given.

I hope you can see the connection between the McMenomy's 'op.cite' quotation [39] above, and the finding of the new McIntyre map confirming to McIntyre's orientation. I assumed the CSI literary team had already seen item [39] previously, and they put one and two together to establish there CSI book scenario.

Now that Kelvyn has acknowledged their map Appendix11A as posted previously from their latest book, I will continue to show why the CSI report document is 180 degrees around the wrong way. Please stay posted.

Bill

* As a consequence I was dismissed from the team by letter in March 2010.
I was advised to present my own case which I have done with enthusiasm because history must be recorded correctly.



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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Kelvyn on Wed 30 Jan - 17:37:31

Bill it is quite amazing how you can read the minds and analytical competence of people:

Our placement of the camp site relies upon ALL the evidence available and it was when the detailed McIntyre diagram was uncovered that it became possible FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE 1878 to position it using his compass directions and township directions drawn therein.
It was also the first time the placement of the tent coulod be substantiated relative to the 2 logs.
NO Bill by the time we had the diagram the site was well and truly calculated from all the evidence other than this diagram and when we had the diagram it simply added the important matters of DIRECTION and TENT PLACEMENT.
Linton's 40 year belief was correct - we stood at the point of camp site position by using Linton's 40 years experience in this country and which he had extensively reviewed against what he knew about the story of the camp location - spear grass, springs, to name just a couple then when it could be demonstartaed relative to the very "perfect" description by the Herald's special reporter as to the position of the camp (a matter you have so far simply refused to acknowledge eliminates your proposed site by the way) and which we were able to identify and prove by engaging professional surveyors to survey the land. This is well documented in the report also.
You simply do little credit in attempting to show that Linton was wrong ! NO he was absolutely correct, the site was exactly where he had determined well before we had met him. The Burman photographs at that time were not a matter he needed to use to determine from observed observations and local knowledge of the area where the camp would have been. Then it only became a matter of orienting the Burman images BUT ON THE SITE HE HAD DETERMINED BEFOREHAND.
You give him little credit for his extensive understanding of the country and the fact that as a registered apiarist the Stringybark Creek country and surrounds are his licenced country ande country he has been familiar with for the 40 plus years of his life.
You seem to be able to deduce how we think, how we undertook our extensive analysis and much discussion etc to produce our extensive report wWHICH WE HAVE HAD NO REASON TO REWORK SINCE ITS COMPLETION (YES, it has beden amended with further evidence since the first completion but orientation and all other evidence based observations remain).

A wrong ORIENTATION subsequently changed following Linton's discussions with us DID NOT ALTER THE PRIMARY DATUM OF THE POSITION OF THE CAMP.
And as you are well aware others have done their own analysis and to date have all determined the location of the camp site to be in close proximity to our location.

One and two together seems more an appropriate description of your approach and often unsubstantiated statements that you make on occasions with little (and on at least one occasion with NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER concerning me in another forum).

And as for Gary Dean he offered no opinion in your presence but discussed extensively with us his views, ie You were not privy to other discussions so once again you try to infer by your words that Gary provided no relevant input - WRONG!
Give up Bill, you continue your ridiculous assertions - "does not discount that Mc did not write this !"
Perhaps we can discount the Herald special reporter's description of the placement of the camp site as simply being a figment of his imagination, using the same unsubstantiated and illogical statements approach you seem to be a master at.

Now as it seems you have our latest report, (and if not then the source of the page you posted recently needs to be appraised that the document is copyright and by supply of content to another is in breach of that copyright - read the wording of copyright - use of material is for the person in possession of the document subject to certain limitations and not for further dissemination unrelated to that first person's use), I refer you to page 24 of the report and the information from Charlie Engelke about spring location. (You aren't the only person ever given direct information - as you spent considerable time explaining recently).

So I now say push on as you want. I will not be continuing to concern myself with the continual "playing the man" and not the topic and all of the relevant evidence presented in our report.
Your fixation on the 2 photographs has become a circular argument (and not only in this forum but others now dormant or extinct). Nothing done here alters the fact that the report is in the hands of the appropriate authorities and it is they who will make their considered assessment.

Once again you lecture on how to present information - sorry I do it my way!
So again:
Sine die

PS No sign of any PMO either.

Kelvyn

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Wed 30 Jan - 18:22:15

Hi Bill,

Re your above diagram page 11. (Your conclusions)

You may want to correct the viewing angles 2A (South East) & 2B (East South East).
Both exhibit the creek where as in your opinion (page 28) there is no creek between the logs and the slope.

In addition these angles do not match the other viewing angles throughout your document.
E.G. Page 36. Page 12

They all seem to vary. Up to you.

Cheers,
Glenn

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Wed 30 Jan - 19:01:28

Bill,

McIntyre provided us with very good descriptions. By changing his wording leaves it more open for interpritation.

Quote: I would not take Mc's orientation as gospel because all he wanted to do was describe to his superiors how he later found the body of Lonigan in the dark. In his mind's eye he knew there was a log laying east west while standing in front of the tent facing east. He said he went left around the east west log and to between it and the stump as where Lonigan had been shot.

Page 20. (Your conclusions) McIntyre said to find Scanlan’s body - “from the tent he turned left past the log and the stump to the creek – and found the body of Scanlan near the bridle track”

The change of wording I assume was done so as to suit your tent location.

From McIntyre’s manuscript.

When I found the position of the tent I could have gone to the bodies blindfold. Starting from the tent I took a turn to the left between the stump and the log as shown in the accompanying engraving and then proceeding in the direction of the creek, outside the clearing where they had been searching. I showed them the body of Lonigan. All doubts about the truth of my story were removed by this confirmation of it. Then walking down the creek a little distance and close to the bridle track I pointed to the body of Scanlan.

Glenn

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Bill Denheld on Fri 1 Feb - 20:46:57

Here is the second reason CSI@SBC report have got their orientation wrong -

Take a look at this picture, do you see the light side and shadow underneath the branch ?
It was taken by me after noon with the sun over my right shoulder. The camera was pointing southerly. You can see the shadow of the branch on the driveway.


If you cannot see the image-
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/branchshadow.jpg

Now take a look at the picture below. Do you see the top red arrow, and the others all pointing the same way as the picture above. The red arrows indicate the source of the light without doubt.
Yes, on the day Burman took this picture the sky may have been overcast, but without any doubt the light comes from above right and from behind the photographer. This indicates where north was on that day in October 1878.


[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
If you cannot see the image -
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/burmanphoto1arrows.jpg

The red arrows point to un mistakable shadow details within both Burman photos.

In the southern hemisphere all light from the sun arcs through the northern sky. The sun rises in the east and sets in the west.

This means by the arrows alone we have to conclude the photo was taken after mid-day, and the camera was pointing southerly. The light was coming from the right and from behind. This is fact and cannot be refuted.

With this basic knowledge, how then can the CSI@SBC team substantiate the Burman photos were looking North East? It is irrefutably demonstrated the light is coming from the northern sky.

But if you don't want to believe me, just recently I received an email from one very eminent person, Mr. Sydney Kirkby, I had met Syd in the late 1960's, we had mutual interests but had lost contact till fairly recently when his story of Antarctic exploration was broadcast on ABC Radio National several years ago. After some years trying to track him down I finally cought up with him - much to my delight.

In his relevant email to me about the Stringybark Creek, and webpages on the subject,
Syd wrote to me Wed 14 Nov 2012

Dear Bill
I am aghast at the lack of rigor and even basic honesty widely evident in the material presented (on Kelly forums) Examples; slopes of trees --- geometric projections -- -- and now about the Burman photos,--

" My reading of the light in the re-enactment photo is thus. The sun is close to the zenith (in the N) and seems to me to lie above the photographer's right shoulder, say 20, 30 degrees (somewhat post noon) off the orientation of the camera. I think this was pretty much standard practice for those times as light coming directly onto a subject "flattens" it, Fully side on, either way, risks losing detail and, of course, coming straight on to the lens is a wash out of detail. We followed these conventions (or tried to) with our mapping photography, both aerial and photo-theodolite. Regards Syd Kirlby "

About Sydney Kirkby-Cited by 'The Australian ' news paper as one of the top 10 Australian adventurers of the 20th Century, it was Syd Kirkby’s expeditions in Antarctica whilst working for the Australian National Antarctic Research Expedition in the 1950 and 1960’s that saw him survey more Antarctic territory than any other explorer – including Scott, Shackleton and Mawson. During his expeditions he was the first man to venture into the 'Prince Charles Mountains with sled dogs. In the autumn of 1960, he and his team journeyed 400 kilometres through Enderby Land from the Napier Mountains to Mawson Station. His contributions have made a significant impact on the fields of regional geochronology, petrology, tectonics, geology, orogeny, glaciology, geomagnetism and paleomagnetism. During 1954 Syd was a member of the Great Sandy desert expeidition and also crossed the Gibson desert from Shark bay in WA right across to Cap Byron in NSW.
Syd has been awarded with the Polar Medal and a Member of the Order of the British Empire, MBE.

Google Sydney Kirkby, here is one link -
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
w w w dot cosmosmagazine.com/blog/5601/pursuing-frontier

The link below is a large detailed Burman photo image page scan from McMenomy's 2001 book N.K. The Authentic Illustrated History
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/burmanphotos-large.jpg
This image was prepared several years ago and linked to other Kelly forums in the past.

The CSI@SBC report document will try to tell you the sun miraculously must have been coming from the southern sky, which is an absurdity. Their document is 180 degrees wrong for the Burman photos, so their scenario is totally wrong because there are no steep slopes comparable to the Burman photo anywhere near this area.

Bill


Last edited by Bill Denheld on Sun 17 Feb - 13:50:44; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Correction re Syd Kirkby - MBE. ( Member of the Order of the British Empire-, not OBE)

Bill Denheld

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  joey. on Fri 1 Feb - 23:01:33

On the 19 Jan on SBC thread you also say " I have nothing but respect for Bill" I say this without hesitation" , but Joe if you have this high respect for me, have you ever thought of asking me to accompany you to SBC, and I could have personally shown you my findings there, and then you may have been better qualified to be a tour leader.

Joe, can you now elaborate on your Pet hate, 'Manipulation of Historical facts'
I'm sure the readers would like to know what they are ' in your opinion' ?

Bill, seriously? C'mon I don't believe it is necessary - Well unless you twist my arm. lol! Fear not Bill, I will have plenty to say soon enough.

Bill,
Firstly - I don't accompany you - FULL STOP. HOWEVER, yes at one stage I did consider inviting you BUT reconsidered.

Second - Some years back you and I were exchanging emails, and in one of those emails I politely asked you if I could join you for a day at SBC ...... LOL! from that point on you conveniently did NOT reply back and we never spoke via email for some years later. Yes! Bill that person was me, however you may have forgotten OR you neglected to tie me in with that email.

Thirdly - How dare you - How despicable, shame, shame, on you - yet once again. What gives you the right to question me as a tour leader? Have you been on any of my day tours, any of them? if not then shut the hell up - you know NO better.

Finally -
Bill - we all know what your findings are all about - no need for a personal show & tell - However, I must mention you have made a spectacular discovery! Yes, I'm of course referring to the 2 chimney site which is to the south of the TRUE & correct police camp.

Bill - when will you come clean and admit you have it all wrong? We won't think any less of you.

Bill, I give you fair warning - DON'T TAKE ME FOR A FOOL





Last edited by joey. on Fri 1 Feb - 23:05:08; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Left a word out "you")

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

Post  Glenn Standing on Sat 2 Feb - 19:23:41

Bill,

Re - Burman image. As above

Quote: The light was coming from the right and from behind. This is fact and cannot be refuted.

Interesting as:
The left side of the standing man is highlighted from his vest down to his boot.
As is the left side of the burnt post.
In the wider Burman image:
No dark shadows are on the left of any of the trees. Or the stump in the fore ground.
The right (arm) side of the man seated on the log is highlighted as are his boots.
This would Indicate that the sun light was coming from above the front left of the image.

Therefore the image would be looking towards the East.

Within the CSI@SBC report.
An extensive analyses has been made on the sun movements across the police camp site on 3rd November 1878.
This data has been obtained from Geoscience Australia.

Time...........Sun Direction...............Azimuth.................Altitude
12 noon...............N.....................359 deg 17’ 23”.............68deg 07’ 06”
1pm....................NW...................324deg 08’ 38”..............64deg 15’ 36”
2pm...................WNW.................301deg 03’ 44”..............55deg 22’ 13”
3pm....................W.....................286deg 16’ 49”..............44deg 23’ 11”

Azimuth – is the clockwise horizontal angle (in degrees, minutes & seconds) from true north to the sun/moon.
Altitude – is the vertical angle (in degrees, minutes & seconds) from an ideal horizon, to the sun/moon.


As to the slope – I have issues with the methods used to establish the height of the slope, the viewer scope and the angle and direction the viewer scope was used to demonstrate the height of the slope near the Kelly tree. It is my opinion that the slope height demonstrations as shown in your conclusions are false and misleading.

There is a spring, declivity, boggy ground and spear grasses actually near the Kelly tree location that all fit McIntyre’s map and descriptions. Plus many other features that also match including the slope.

It has previously been established and agreed that there is no spring at the two hut site. Therefore it cannot be the site.

Why then must we continue this debate?


Glenn

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Re: orientation of burman photos at sbc

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