Stringybark creek

So much controversy surrounds the true site, where an epic battle unfolded between the Kelly gang and the police. Kelly scholars for decades have debated and painstakingly researched all known material relating to that fatal day. To this day the mystery behind 26/10/1878 has etched itself in history.

Both the CSI@SBC team and Bill Denheld have extensively researched the mystery. However, with so much conflicting evidence both parties have come to a disagreement with one another.

Where did the shootout occur? Was it on the eastern or western side of stringybark creek? Perhaps we may never know this question for certain.

Here is your opportunity to have your say. I invite all Kelly enthusiasts, whom share a passion for the kelly story to voice your opinion.

Let the debate begin.

Thank you Chuck for inviting me to your SBC forum.

There have been many disputes, starting with the naming of Australia.
Here are just a few.

Arthur Philip's original landing site at Botony Bay, we learned from Sydney Historian Brian McDonald who researched and found first fleet journals to prove the exact spot differed to the accepted site. He presented the facts to the Royal Australian Historic Society in 1987 and lost. Brian wrote on KC2000 forum quote - "my opponents disappeared so as not to be proven wrong! "

The Eureka Stockade rebellion site is in dispute. The true site happens to be some 450 metres west of the 1884 monument near The Eureka centre at Ballarat. Even the original flag is in dispute.

All sounds familiar! Will we get StringyBark Ck history right?

It's been about eighty three years that the shootout site was erroneously thought to be near the Kelly tree. That was when Mr Ian Jones in 1960's was shown a site by local land holder Mr Jack Healy the true site was in fact 250-300 metres up the creek on the East bank. In the years leading up to 2003, we were all quite happy except close examination of 'lay of the land' there did no match the photos taken by Burman at the time Oct 1878.

With the finding of the two huts fireplaces in 2002 on the West bank of SBC directly opposite the Jones/ Healy site, this threw doubt onto their east bank scenario as all primary sourced texts pointed to the site being on the West bank. These two huts had been built there by all accounts as Shepherds accommodation because a permanent year round ground water 'spring' that became known as SBC. The ensuing debacle disputing the east bank site was ignored by the authorities who in the mean spend about fifty thousand on walking tracks to the wrong site.

During the filming of documentary "Ned Kelly Unmasked" April 2008, to which I was invited to provide my side of the SBC location, this was short lived as I was replaced by Glenrowan local Linton Briggs who was happy to show the film directors his preferred site opposite the Kelly tree and on the other side of the road. Ian Jones and Linton could not agree and a stand off occurred.

Linton had believed in his site for the past 40 years, but when I later organised an onsite meeting with him, I asked Linton about his site to show me, " if this was the site looking south, where does he propose the Slope in the Burman photo was to be found " ? There was non to be seen, so I pointed this out to him and made it clear this could not be the site. However the next day we met again, this time he informed me he had changed his mind and had turned the his 40 year view around by 90 degrees, now the view was looking East and his site was now between the road and the creek far below, with an east bank slightly rising even further distant.
So much for a forty year belief !

At this point of time 2005 I decided to publish on my website pages at ironicon.com.au -
all my research which concludes the true site of the shootout was at the site of the two huts some 200 m further south on the western bank of SBC.

I would be pleased to answer any questions relating to my research.

Bill Denheld

And so it begins.

Ian Jones first presented his findings regarding the location of the police camp at Beechworth in November 1993. To my knowledge up until that time the site was generally recognized as being near the current Kelly tree.

Ian Jones or Linton Briggs, are not likely to be here to deny or confirm what has been already stated above. I hold no deeper respect for any man than I do for Linton. He is a gentleman of the highest order.

The Spring that became known as SBC ? Was known and referred to as a creek in 1878 by Ned Kelly, McIntyre and many others.

Bill, are you satisfied that all you have written and demonstrated on your well publicized document, SBC the authentic location (July 2012) is true and correct?

I would like to confirm this prior to asking any questions relating to your research.

I would also like to know if you intend to copy any or all of this debate onto to your web site. For future editing and commentary.

Regards,
Glenn

Hello Glenn and all,

Spring along SBC.
Local knowledge and oral history confirned SBC was a spring. This is demonstrated by the fact that for much of the year the top end of SBC is a dry gully while from just above the two huts site where the gully gets steep, water seeps to the surface all year round. I've seen it myself back in 2003 when the undergrowth was manageable to get through.

SBC The Authentic Location document,
Glenn, I have presented my case document. If you or anyone else can find fundamental error I will be the first to acknowledge mistakes immediately, and happy to change it.

Backup the SBC debate.
I will keep copies of the debate as it progresses and recommend all to do the same. I do not intend to publish debate content elsewhere, but may do so if edits and deletions alter the flow of the debate to its detriment.

Bill

I concur with Glenn. I have seen the ‘spring’ at SBC and it is well above the creek and is not the creek’s source. It would also be the ideal vantage point to see any police coming up the creek (from the north), to the police camp.

Fitzy.

Like any spring..... the water tastes for fresh

Its any wonder thou that the spring hadnt been noticed before - even with the obvious signs that it stood nearby.

It was an amazing find & one that adds weight to the site.

Spring - A place where water naturally flows out from the ground.

Glenn, Fitzy and Joe,
Gentlemen,
The water run off from the western bank of SBC that you, Linton and Kelvyn want to believe is the Spring that Ned wrote about dries up soon after it has stopped raining, and is not an all year round water source anyone would want to rely upon.

Whereas the 'spring' that I refer to is further up the creek. It is documented by Mc the Kellys came into the police camp from the south along the creek heading north, quote
"We approached the spring as close as we could get to the camp as the intervening space being clear ground. -- -- -- I stopped at the logs and Dan went back to the spring for fear the troopers would come in that way, but I soon heard them come up the creek"

As the Bridle track followed SBC creek it also went past the two huts there. The bridle track was the road in those days and the Kellys approached the camp from within the vee of the gully that ran parallel to the track. But from higher up the police camp was hidden behind a 'declivity' as Mc put it, or little hill slope that would disallow a clear view to the south, hence " Dan went back to the spring" However your spring is to the west of SBC, so here is your error, to make one point.

In 2003 it was still possible to venture up the creek to identify the possible area of the 'Spring'. I estimate I was some 50 metres up the creek when I did find a dammed off section by earlier occupants of the area. Whether they were the original builders of the huts or later goldminers we cannot be sure, but the dam had been breached by natural erosion forming a deep vee to the creek bottom and to me it looked like a permanent water hole behind the remains of the dam wall.

This could have confirmed to me what Bill Stewart had told me 18 years earlier. And yes Glenn, perhaps I should have made mention of this in my document and I will correct this, and Glenn, you quoted me from my document, but avoid to mention - it was in 1985 I was told by Bill Stewart about SBC being a spring. It was not until 2003 that I tried to find the spring but there was plenty of moisture in the ground when I came across the dam, and I could not be sure this was the spring. Perhaps together we should spend a day to source the exact spot of the spring.

I would like to present another interesting point supporting SBC being a Spring.

In Sheila Hutchinson's book " Heritage and History on my Doorstep" 1999, page 124, mentions Mansfield Courier- January 1895- a 100 gold miners working the Toombullup area somewhere past Messrs Archer and McCrums to Burns place. ( Archer's residence was at the top end of SBC and McCrums occupied the lower end of SBC) It mentions taking the Bridle track to Burns Creek and miners taking their wash dirt some 3/4 of a mile by horse and dray to have the dirt sluiced properly. And - " We were informed on good authority that two miners , for a very few months work, cleared over 120 Pounds ( money) by sluicing Stringybark Creek." So, as reported in hot summer January, here we have 'sluicing' works at SBC. The only way you can do sluicing is if there is a reliable water source on hand. The dam I mention may well have been well below the 'spring' there. The spring the CSI team believe in would have by January have been as dry as a bakers shovel !

Just as Ned Kelly used the word 'Shingle Hut' to describe where the police were camped, he also described the 'Spring up the creek as an identifiable land mark up the creek.
The CSI@SBC team's 'spring' does not run all year round so cannot be the spring Ned talked about. Did you know there is a record of the Kelly's working SBC for gold ? So they knew well enough there was a reliable water spring there!

Here is another and perhaps the most scientific proof SBC is the Spring-
See image below supplied courtesy of Sheila Hutchinson, a 'Report on Toombullup Gold Field' by James Stirling, Government Geologist 1895.
The cross section shows why there is a spring at SBC. Please read the red text.
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/sbc-geology-small.jpg



See below the same area on a topographic map of SBC and Hollands Creek
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/sbc-topo.jpg



To see large SBC cross section click link below-
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/sbc-geology.jpg

Gentlemen,
I hope this answers your interesting assumptions regarding the spring at SBC.
Please ask more questions regarding my document. Copy - paste
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/stringybark_ck_the_authentic_location.pdf

Bill

Hi Bill,

Thx for your input!

Spring - A place where water naturally flows out from the ground.

Quoted by Bill above.
Yes, but when there is water to flow.
Seasonal spring - only when sufficient water has accumulated at the source to be able to commence flowing.
Seasonal springs at SBC have been dormant for some years as water (rainfall) has been scarce until the "drought breaking" rains of 2012.
Talk to those who know the country and you will soon be appraised how these springs in this area have been on a continual cycle of dormancy and activity.
Read our comments in the August 2012 CSI@SBC report for a description of this phenomena.
Also see the report - the head of SBC is a spring located to the south of the old tolmie road on high ground on the property once the place of the Engleke's.

Hello Kelvyn, Good to see you on the forum.

The definition of Spring came from the dictionary, not my words.

You mention your team's August 2012 edition CSI@SBC report, as giving explanation as to why 'springs' cycle - depending on rainfall, that is obvious, then you say "Read our comments".

Kelvyn, you have entered into a public debate and cannot expect the readers here to go out and buy the book. Tell us what you say about your spring west of SBC road if it is important to this debate.

You finish your posting acknowledging that StringyBark Creek is a Spring.
Well thank you Kel, at last we have an agreement. SBC is a Spring.
If you can not see the image below copy and paste this into your browser-
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/engelke-dairy-stringybark-ck.jpg



Photo- w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/engelke-dairy-stringybark-ck.jpg
In 2003 Charlie Engelke ( Now deceased) gave me all his Toombullup and Kelly Creek family photos to copy. This one shows the top end of StringyBark Creek the dairy building, looking north east, and I think Charlie said that was him in the picture. This shot gives a good idea of the type of country that was suitable for potato growing due to the red vulcanic soils and well drained coarse gravely soils . They were kicked off the farm during the late forties due to the Water board wanting to preserve the entire water catchment to supply Benalla's water supply. The water run off they knew was well filtered before it reached the open creeks. The old Tolmie road is to the right and Stringybark Creek Road is to the hard hard left. I have a picture I can show.
Bill

Bill.
Stop playing with words and get real.
We have NO agreement as such your words are absolute codswallop.
"You finish your posting acknowledging that StringyBark Creek is a Spring.
Well thank you Kel, at last we have an agreement. SBC is a Spring."
Read what I said: The top - source is a spring which then allows water to enter the natural "valley" of Stringybark and this is a creek !! to which all water running off the eastern and western side of this "depression" ie valley forms the creek.
Stop the rubbish Bill. You have a knack of twisting words/sentences to a meaningless position.
Creeks all over Australia start with water from the ground !! ie a spring but believe-it-or-not they are creeks as they flow away from the point of discharge.
Oh, and the photo is interesting but proves nothing in this matter except that you have it.
Go talk to bush people and tell them that all creeks formed at their head by a water discharge are in fact springs and not creeks.

Who is playing with words?

Kelvyn, in your CSI at SBC book, you quote on page 11, the Governemt Geologist's report James Strirling 1895 - he is talking about the section between the two red lines of my picture posted previously,
If you can not see image copy and paste this URL into your browser
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/sbc-geology-small.jpg



In the report on Stringybark Creek, the geologist writes-
" In following down the Stringybark Creek valley, the character of the wash in the creek banks, where alluvial Gold has been obtained as close to the site where the Kellys shot the police, is seen to partake of that the materials abraded from the silicious conglomerates of the higher levels"

All meaning the 'hill' wash shown in the creek banks goes right from the top down to where the police were shot. All the alluvial gravels and conglomerates, are spread widely over and down along the SBC valley. Gosh Kel, just in case you don't understand, this hill wash is the sponge that holds mega mega litres of water from many years of rain that slowely disipates out at the lower levels in what is decribed as the 'Spring' at SBC.

Kelvyn, reading the geologist's report I wonder if you may have a miss quoted paragraph about Mr Archer Junior in your book? I will quote from my source which may add to the understanding of where the spring was actually located, and wonder why this may have been miss quoted as I cannot find reference to your source for this information.
Quote from page 46 of the Stirling report of 1895 - This is what the geologist wrote-

"Mr. Archer, junior, having obtained a pound weight of gold in a small paddock, in close proximity to the tree riddled with the bullets fired at Sergeant Kennedy by the Kellys, from an ambush of sword or cutting grass and scrub to the south."

To see image of report copy and past this URL into your browser-
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/images/sbc-geo-report.jpg

The image below is just the left hand side of the image


Readers, please stop here and note this above quote - ' the gold was found north of the place where the Kellys fired at the police from ambush of sword grass and hitting the tree, later known as the Kelly tree. Note underlined north.

The CSI@SBC wording on page 11 for the same sentence - but note the red text below has altering its meaning by switching the locations around by 180 degrees- CSI@SBC book has -

" "Mr. Archer, junior, having obtained a pound weight of gold in a small paddock, from an ambush of sword or cutting grass and scrub to the south, close to the tree riddled with bullets, marking the spot where the Kelly Gang surprised the Troopers."

Readers, do you see the difference ? By all this, the CSI@SBC report suggests Mr. Archer's gold came from the south of the Kelly tree that was riddled with bullets, whereas in fact by reading the true statement - the gold was found to the north of the gang's ambush of sword grass area.

Is the CSI team's report cooking the books to add weight to their argument suggesting the police camp was near the current Kelly tree simply because we know the gold workings are to the south of the current Kelly tree, - and - their feable drainage pipe under the road that sometimes flows a trickle that the CSi team constitutes to be the 'Spring' that Ned Kelly refered to.

Kelvyn, it is you who is playing with words not me?
Bill

Readers, in a nut shell, this is about where the police were shot. The CSI@SBC team are seemingly using every minute detail that may support the current Kelly tree location. This site does not exhibit a Burman photo slope, nor fireplaces of huts on the ground, no substancial geological proof of a spring to the south. So this K tree area is not the true site.

Dear members,
It appears from where I'm sitting it's a case of Bill v the CSI team.

Bill, unless you stop ranting and give a good clear argument, you are unfortunately on the losing end of the stick and cannot be taken seriously. Conclusions are drawn but are not substantiated. The many miles of text that you have painstakingly written up is mind-blowing.
At this stage I have drawn to the conclusion that you are in fact manipulating the facts for self purpose. Why? I care not know.
However, getting history right is imperative, get on with it, and be clear about it. From hereon end these pages will be viewed by an unnamed official.

A short word to the CSI team.
I'm yet to be convinced. Blame Bill or blame the team. South, North, up or down what is it? We have two conflicting views and an audience whom are non the wiser, enlighten us.

Joey, What are you up to? Bill has answered you and yet we wait in anticipation. Is it fair to say you disagree with Bill's work?
BM.

Yes Brian,
It is a case of my SBC-The Authentic Location document 'V' Linton, Kelvyn and Glenn's CSI @SBC report.

Read the opening statement by Admin 'Chuck' on this page - Let the debate begin.

If you have trouble understanding any part of my document, then ask me the question.

I am the person who found the fireplaces of 2 huts associated with the police camp of 1878 in 2002 up the creek opposite the Jones site. It was not untill 2009 that the a team was put together by my instigation so that we would investigate the most likely place of the shoot out. But we could not agree. We parted company to present our own findings.

One document is CSI@SBC the report which you have to buy,
My document is for free. If you can not see link copy and paste bold text into your browser
w w w dot ironicon.com.au/stringybark_ck_the_authentic_location.pdf

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Bill.

Brian - Welcome to the Forum.

As far as I am concerned you hit the nail on the head. Thank you for bringing some common sense to the debate.

A creek is not a spring and would never have been referred to as such. Any runoff from a spring that creates a watercourse is a creek, whether permanent or not. Spring has an outlet and is still a spring whether it is flowing or not also. I have seen the spring the CSI team refer to and even during the drought there were signs of it by the plant life, suggesting water. After the rains, the spring started to flow again and it is on elevated ground which would coincide with Ned’s description.

Hiya Brian

Brian, YES It goes without saying I disagree with Bill. In fact many of us do BUT one thing I must mention and I speak for myself. However, I'm sure others feel the same way. I have nothing but respect for Bill - I say this without hesitation. and I think deep down Bill knows that.

Joey, What are you up to? Bill has answered you and yet we wait in anticipation

Brian to answer you simply - Was Rome built in a day?

Brian,
Drop us a PM - we'll do a KC run sometime.

Chat soon
joey

A term in use :"The Kelly tree location" is yet another misrepresentation of the position of CSI@SBC's proposed site of the police camp.
Yes It is NEAR TO but not at the "Kelly Tree" (a tree that can be seen and identified in the 'Cuddon photograph' (page 13 August 2012 report) and in the Burman photo - Plate 1 (page 86 of the August 2012 report).
Perhaps an equally appropriate description can be applied to the two rock piles to the south of the tree, as "near" is a subjective descriptive word.

And as yet no one has commented on the rock pile identified in the report - at page 27, some 37 metrtes to the NW of the present Kelly tree, and which can be inferred as being the site of the shingle hut (remember Ned asked MacIntyre who was in the hut- why would he need to do so if the hut was as close as is implied in layouts drawn by BD ??, perhaps such a question was necessary as the hut to which Ned refererred was in the denser bush on the north side of the camp clearing and some distance away.

And perhaps the question of slope could be considered by reference to page 16 of the report where a photograph clearly demonstrating rising ground(slope) on the eastern side of the creek can be seen - and which all maps showing contour lines confirm.

And please don't forget the very descriptive report of the Herald's special reporter dated 5 November 1878 (Appendix 15 of the report), and how his description of the land profile matches 100% with the professional survey undertaken for the CSI@SBC team - Appendices 3A and 3B of the report.

Bill, Please ensure that when you reference the CSI@SBC team by name that you include the other team member: Mr Gary Dean.
Lets ensure that matters recorded are accurate.

Kelvyn,
You ask when I am referencing the 'CSI@SBC report' I should include Gary Dean's name.
Are you aware Gary may have changed his mind about the CSI location ? He has said to me the two huts are probably the right spot. When asked by others he has said the same thing, as to Trent Cupid and Robert McGarrigle. Robert's posting on 'Orientation' thread, see what Gary said to Bob,
"He admitted to me that Bill could be right, his exact words".

Kelvyn,
If there are so many mis representations, then show us where!

It is you that keeps talking about certain pages from your 'CSI@SBC report' Aug 2012, but not every reader of this forum including myself has that report, so please show us those pages you refer to, then all readers may be able to participate.

My document is on the internet for everyone to read and I provide links where ever possible.
Bill

w w w dot ironicon.com.au/stringybark_ck_the_authentic_location.pdf

The report is available for purchase from
Glen Rowen Cobb & Co Pty Ltd
37 Gladstone Street, Glenrowan, Victoria, Australia, 3675
Phone 03 5766 2409 Fax 03 5766 2650
E-mail: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Bill,
you are unable to substantiate the existence of a spring at your preferred site.
This should be noted.

As there is no spring at the two hut site then it cannot be the site.


Glenn